Pope Seeks End To Death Penalty

[Norseman82]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323400467' post='2347711']


This is 100% accurate and still true today. What is different today is that life can be protected and fostered without the need to kill the guilty. The chance of escape in any prison throughout the world is next to impossible. This is why the Holy Father and the Vatican have been working towards the end of the death penalty for over a decade
[/quote]

Then again, Charles Manson is eligible to apply for parole every few years (sometimes after every two years, as I recall). Plus, I have heard of escapes from prison.

I'm more swayed by the issue of whether innocent people are being executed.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323400467' post='2347711']
This is 100% accurate and still true today. What is different today is that life can be protected and fostered without the need to kill the guilty. The chance of escape in any prison throughout the world is next to impossible. This is why the Holy Father and the Vatican have been working towards the end of the death penalty for over a decade
[/quote]

The primary purpose of Capital Punishment is punishment. It did/does not exist because there are unsafe prisons nor is it primary purpose to deter crime. The power to use Capital Punishment has been given to the State by God to punish men who commit grave and offensive wicked acts.

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323400467' post='2347711']It's offensive statements like this that got your Church Militant tag taken away[/quote]

I remember quite clearly how it was taken away. I said I would always defend the truths of the Catholic Church even if it went against a pm rule that has since been thrown out. But it doesn't surprise me at all you would find a statement like that offensive.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1323396818' post='2347665']

I remember about a month and 2 days ago you swore off the internet entirely. great willpower, yo.

I guess arguing against the Pope's position is just too fun to resist.
[/quote]

Go back and read that thread again, perhaps the update I gave to that thread should be some thing you should like to read idk. I was having serious health problems at the time which have not completely gone away and I do not post any where close to as much as I once did because of it. But thank you so much for the jab. Means a lot bro.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1323456282' post='2348116']

The primary purpose of Capital Punishment is punishment. It did/does not exist because there are unsafe prisons nor is it primary purpose to deter crime. The power to use Capital Punishment has been given to the State by God to punish men who commit grave and offensive wicked acts.
[/quote]
Uh, I don't think so bro.
That seems an awful lot like wrath to me.

[dominicansoul]

Could it be there is a discrepancy between "death penalty" and "capital punishment?"

does capital punishment ALWAYS mean punishment by death?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1323412399' post='2347839']

Then again, Charles Manson is eligible to apply for parole every few years (sometimes after every two years, as I recall). Plus, I have heard of escapes from prison.

I'm more swayed by the issue of whether innocent people are being executed.
[/quote]


Well first off, Manson was never charged with murdering anybody. He was charged with conspiring and coordinating the murders. Second, he's been in genpop for a very long time now and is basically a nonfactor at Corcoran. Third, he will never ever ever get paroled.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1323456282' post='2348116']

The primary purpose of Capital Punishment is punishment. It did/does not exist because there are unsafe prisons nor is it primary purpose to deter crime. The power to use Capital Punishment has been given to the State by God to punish men who commit grave and offensive wicked acts.



[/quote]

Please feel free to back that up with Church teachings before I disregard it as personal opinion.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1323346199' post='2347253']
I'm not an expert on the subject by any means. I would support an optimal solution that affirms the dignity of human beings. This would have to be based on verifiable social science and not private feelings. In spite of past threads about this I've yet to see any substantial evidence that killing convicts is a worthwhile activity. Assuming you are correct that incarcerating people is a burden, perhaps there are better solutions to be explored than a euthanasia line.
[/quote]

Nor am I an expert. I believe such a solution would be ideal. That way, everyone would be happy - except the people who want capital punishment just to see people die.


[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323400819' post='2347719']

I have 10 years experience building prisons. I've worked closely and became friends with many correctional officers across the country. I've met with hundreds of architects here and around the world and I can tell you that while it takes more than steel doors and brick, we provide much more than steel doors and brick. The end result is that society is safe from those who have committed capital offenses.

Everything that the Church has taught about the execution of violent criminals is based on the protection of the innocent people in society. Society is well protected
[/quote]

I see what you're saying - but I'm not sure I agree. It seems to me that everything the Church teaches about the execution of violent criminals is based on protection of any innocent person's life, and not just people within the mainstream societal boundaries. You might be able to argue that in response to my thoughts about the safety of other inmates (if they somehow deserve to be in danger by breaking the law), but you really can't make the same argument about innocent "correctional officers" (prison guards). Granted, a lot of those guys aren't that innocent themselves, but there are those who are.

I guess you could look at their occupation the same way as a soldier's, or police officer's - they know the risks when they sign up, and they put [i]themselves[/i] in harms way for the sake of the safety of others. Actually, I think I just talked myself out of my own argument to some extent... I'm still not convinced that it's never needed in 1st world countries, but I might be shying away from the argument that people who work in prisons aren't safe, for the reason just stated.

[Jaime]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1323474382' post='2348276']

Nor am I an expert. I believe such a solution would be ideal. That way, everyone would be happy - except the people who want capital punishment just to see people die.




I see what you're saying - but I'm not sure I agree. It seems to me that everything the Church teaches about the execution of violent criminals is based on protection of any innocent person's life, and not just people within the mainstream societal boundaries. You might be able to argue that in response to my thoughts about the safety of other inmates (if they somehow deserve to be in danger by breaking the law), but you really can't make the same argument about innocent "correctional officers" (prison guards). Granted, a lot of those guys aren't that innocent themselves, but there are those who are.

I guess you could look at their occupation the same way as a soldier's, or police officer's - they know the risks when they sign up, and they put [i]themselves[/i] in harms way for the sake of the safety of others. Actually, I think I just talked myself out of my own argument to some extent... I'm still not convinced that it's never needed in 1st world countries, but I might be shying away from the argument that people who work in prisons aren't safe, for the reason just stated.
[/quote]


I will never argue that correctional officers aren't safe Jack. I've been through too many max's and super max's to ever believe that. And you and I are on the same page about comparing them to soldiers or police officers. The Church of course believes that every life is sacred. But I think what she teaches when it comes to capital punishment is based on double effect. When it is an act of self defense (of society) to put a person to death because there is no other recourse, then it is moral and justified. But we have other recourses today. And the reason that the Vatican is trying to end the death penalty around the globe is because other countries are building prisons to the same standards as American and European countries.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1323407666' post='2347796']
This is what Archbishop Dolan had to say on the subject this week, “If even a man on death row has a soul, is a human person, an ‘is’ that cannot be erased even by beastly crimes he may have committed, then we ought not to strap him to a gurney and inject him with poison.”
Read more: [url="http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/archbishop-dolan-discusses-church-teaching-on-the-dignity-of-human-life#ixzz1g0lpoWDw"]http://www.ncregiste...e#ixzz1g0lpoWDw[/url]
[/left]

[/quote]
I was just coming here to post that. lol.

“If the preborn baby in the womb, from the earliest moments of his or her conception, is a human person — an ‘is’ that comes not from the catechism but from the biology textbook used by any sophomore in high school — then that baby’s life ought to be cherished and protected….If an immigrant from Mexico is a child of God, … then we ought to render him or her honor and a welcome, not a roar of hate, clenched fists and gritted teeth in response to the latest campaign slogan….If even a man on death row has a soul, is a human person, an ‘is’ that cannot be erased even by beastly crimes he may have committed, then we ought not to strap him to a gurney and inject him with poison.”

Pretty intense.

[beatitude]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1323511269' post='2348495']
"….If even a man on death row has a soul, is a human person, an ‘is’ that cannot be erased even by beastly crimes he may have committed, then we ought not to strap him to a gurney and inject him with poison.”
[/quote]

This makes me think about redemption and the possibility for great sinners to become great saints. St Paul himself was complicit in murder. In a sense, we all are: look on a crucifix and remind yourself that you drove in the nails.

The Mau Mau gangster Nicky Cruz personally committed murder and assault and as leader of the Mau Maus was responsible for organising many more. One day he was so profoundly moved by the testimony of an evangelical preacher that he became a Christian. He has spent his subsequent life rehabilitating gangsters and kids who are at risk of becoming gangsters. If he had been put to death for the crimes he committed, who would have helped all these people? Cruz was able to reach them precisely because he knew what the life was like and he had done terrible things himself, and they trusted him.

Carmelite nun and mystic Blessed Maryam Baourdary once wrote, "The most beautiful trees in heaven are the souls who sinned the most on earth. They have used their miseries like manure around their roots."

There is not a person living whom the love of God can't transform. I don't feel that I can support the death penalty without negating this belief. I'm part of a Christian befriending scheme for prisoners here in the UK, and I write to a man who's in a Category A jail (top security). I don't know his crime. We don't ask; we wait for the prisoners to tell us themselves - if they want to. Perhaps I'm writing to a murderer, perhaps to a serial rapist, perhaps to an armed robber. I don't know. What I do know is that I'm writing to someone who is deeply loved by God, and I have to remember that in how I treat him and others like him. Again, when I look at my crucifix, I am reminded that I am not so very different.

[vee]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1323517713' post='2348517']


Carmelite nun and mystic Blessed Maryam Baourdary once wrote, "The most beautiful trees in heaven are the souls who sinned the most on earth. They have used their miseries like manure around their roots."
[/quote]


I'd been looking for that quote!!!

[vee]

State endorsed death penalties remind me of the following people:

[img]http://frmarkdwhite.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/miguel-pro-firing-squad.jpg?w=500[/img]

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1VNrZls9Vv8/TEJ3YnNATMI/AAAAAAAAAlA/nZjoXjk0doU/s1600/CMC1.jpg[/img]

[dominicansoul]

the irony Vee, is that God gave those civil magistrates who murdered Bl. Miguel Pro and the Carmelite martyrs the RIGHT to punish them...

[vee]

[img]http://www.stteresamargaret.org/images/teresa_benedetta_della_croce.jpg[/img]

[vee]

[img]http://www.executedtoday.com/images/26_Martyrs_of_Japan.jpg[/img]