Norseman82 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1326666521' post='2369666'] Appears you missed the dripping sarcasm in my post. [/quote] I thought it could be sarcasm, but sarcasm or not, the fact that some loony in the judicial system may let a dangerous person out of prison is a point that I feel needs to be considered in this whole debate as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Sometimes it's comforting to see debate technics don't change. Or not comforting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1326682608' post='2369845'] I thought it could be sarcasm, but sarcasm or not, the fact that some loony in the judicial system may let a dangerous person out of prison is a point that I feel needs to be considered in this whole debate as well. [/quote] True, but also innocent people get executed. If they're in jail you can let them out and compensate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Humans are not perfect or infallible. Ever. There is no perfect way to deal with punishment or public protection. It's fundamentally silly to attempt to justify eliminating the death penalty on solely moral grounds. The morality of the death penalty is too established in religious history. Attempts to classify all executions based on "morality" ultimately serves to destroy historical credulity of religions, making Christian religion even less of an influence on current society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1326758150' post='2370190'] Humans are not perfect or infallible. Ever. There is no perfect way to deal with punishment or public protection. It's fundamentally silly to attempt to justify eliminating the death penalty on solely moral grounds. The morality of the death penalty is too established in religious history. Attempts to classify all executions based on "morality" ultimately serves to destroy historical credulity of religions, making Christian religion even less of an influence on current society. [/quote] A half-hearted woot. P.S. Meaning, I hear what you're saying and don't entirely disagree. Edited January 17, 2012 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1326758150' post='2370190'] Humans are not perfect or infallible. Ever. There is no perfect way to deal with punishment or public protection. It's fundamentally silly to attempt to justify eliminating the death penalty on solely moral grounds. The morality of the death penalty is too established in religious history. Attempts to classify all executions based on "morality" ultimately serves to destroy historical credulity of religions, making Christian religion even less of an influence on current society. [/quote] Due to human imperfection the historical credulity of religions is already destroyed. Ask any atheist. It doesn't seem to be important how what we do refelects on our religion. For example if a known theif is seen loitering near a jewerly shop, does it diminish their repuation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Mark- Even atheists can ascribe to a moral order. They just don't choose to believe in Santa-god-fairy-bunny. Mormons can recognize and agree with similar values of Hindus. It's simply recognizing what you may agree with another person/religion/philosophy. If I see a shady character hanging out by a jewelry store, that will require notice and maybe caution. But if I see a jewelry store that is unkempt, heavily barricaded, and in a seedy neighborhood, I would be unwise to not be skeptical of the product and services they provide. A religion may not have much control over vocal laity, but like a store, they are expected to have quality control over the managers/bishops. If jewelry stores suddenly started valuing diamonds on size and color only, dismissing clarity despite decades of advertisement touting clarity, I would be stupid to blindly accept that even if I had previously been a loyal customer. The discussion here is really about a recognizing a change as either a tertiary point or a fundamental principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA38vt9W3kQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA38vt9W3kQ[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 "Sorry, we have to postpone your execution. The drug that we want to kill you with is expired and the FDA won't let us kill you with it because it might not be safe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 What point do you want to make w/ the vid, LD? I doubt anyone else will bother to watch it, much less skim it like I did. I'd point out that they clearly demonstrated bleeding hearts have stymied swift and[u] imperfect [/u]execution. The DP process is certainly not the just, clean, humane system people would hope. Neither is imprisonment the respectful, humane, just system where it can be shown clearly better than DP. Reality is that fairies or sparkles or bishops or preachers don't enable societies to make everything "all right". Even if they have an over-inflated esteem of their message. I don't think the Churches should be calling for an abolishment of the DP, but to improve the system to make it swifter and more public as a deterent. Incarceration needs to be constantly adjusted to not coddle, nor to brutalize. Again, neither will be perfect or 'fair' and it's b-s to try to make people believe either is so much better or so much worse thean the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1327035483' post='2371871'] What point do you want to make w/ the vid, LD? I doubt anyone else will bother to watch it, much less skim it like I did.[/quote] I'm not trying to make a point with a 1.2 hour video, just sharing it as interesting. I thought it was interesting anyway. I don't care to debate the topic because I don't know very much about it. If you're curious as to my general (and I do mean very general) opinion I think that rehabilitation and containment are the way to go and that retribution and deterrence are questionable principles. I think it is hard to justify capital punishment when these latter principles are removed. ETA: But again, I don't claim expertise and these are tentative opinions which I'm not motivated to debate at this time. Edited January 20, 2012 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I hear you brother. It is all amateur opinion, no matter how sincerely we hold our opinion. It's kinda the point of forums to explore, challenge, and really honestly consider and think about your opinion and adjust it accordingly. I used to be 100% against the DP but was convinced otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1327037226' post='2371886'] I hear you brother. It is all amateur opinion, no matter how sincerely we hold our opinion. It's kinda the point of forums to explore, challenge, and really honestly consider and think about your opinion and adjust it accordingly. I used to be 100% against the DP but was convinced otherwise. [/quote] Amen bro. What were the main things that changed your mind on the death penalty? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1327039236' post='2371900'] Amen bro. What were the main things that changed your mind on the death penalty? Just curious. [/quote]I've been in State and Federal Prisons (not to be confused with city or county jails) (doing work, not as an inmate) I also have come to know well former inmates (and/or their families) that were long time employees. Based on my experiences/second hand knowledge, I've come to realise how brutal jail life is for inmates. The brutality originates from the system, system abuse (guards, wardens, policies), over crowding, and other inmates. Incarceration does protect society out side to a degree, put brutalized lessor offendors come out unrehabilitated and more dangerous and damaging to society then going in. The protection to society is only temporary. There is no perfect system or perfect justice. Some people have earned removal from society (both prison society and free society). Lessor offenders deserve the opportunity to serve their punishment and return to free society to be a contributing citizen. Subjecting them to violent brutality that destroys their mental health is not fair to them or free society. My "opinion" is society is limited in their ability to be fair to accused or convicted, but good intentions have sacrificed the welfare of the greater population for the welfare of the convicted. In the bigger scope of things, there are individuals who are and will be unjustly convicted and executed. But in my opinion, the greater harm is to free society when the justice scale is tipped to their advantage and lessor offendors are damaged by the resulting environment and returned to society unrehabilitated and practically unable to do anything other than cause more harm to general society. Again, it's my [u]opinion[/u], colored by my experiences, what I've read, and my personal pragmatic philosophy. Edited January 20, 2012 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1327081228' post='2372055'] Again, it's my [u]opinion[/u], colored by my experiences, what I've read, and my personal pragmatic philosophy. [/quote] you ain't bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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