Nihil Obstat Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Frankly, we are so sinful that we deserve all that and much more, and it is only through the great mercy of God that we don't get what we truly deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324086985' post='2352487'] Frankly, we are so sinful that we deserve all that and much more, and it is only through the great mercy of God that we don't get what we truly deserve. [/quote] And yet so many people don't really believe this. The general opinion is that we aren't all that bad really and that God 'should' be full of love and compassion like a parent and understand our little 'mistakes'. The reality is that God is HOLY, beyond what we can comprehend, and each and every one of our 'little sins' is an offence against His holiness. Even a human parent reaches breaking point when thie child seems beyond help, and God's justice is being offended so much of the time. I don't believe that we can comprehend Him or His actions, as we always have to anthropomorphise Him according to our own beliefs and understandings about what justice or compassion is, or what a 'good parent' should do. In God's eyes we are 'evil' indeed (even Jesus said, 'You who are evil.'), and yet He loves us so much that He continues to forgive us (when we are penitent) and work with us where we are. All we have to do to know how much He loves us and wants us to be saved is to look at the miracle of the Incarnation, life and death of Jesus, all for us. If it were up to us, there would be no hope at all but Jesus paid the price for our evil if we are prepared to participate in our own salvation. We deserve death, He gives us Life. Edited December 17, 2011 by nunsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1324088129' post='2352500'] And yet so many people don't really believe this. The general opinion is that we aren't all that bad really and that God 'should' be full of love and compassion like a parent and understand our little 'mistakes'. The reality is that God is HOLY, beyond what we can comprehend, and each and every one of our 'little sins' is an offence against His holiness. Even a human parent reaches breaking point when thie child seems beyond help, and God's justice is being offended so much of the time. I don't believe that we can comprehend Him or His actions, as we always have to anthropomorphise Him according to our own beliefs and understandings about what justice or compassion is, or what a 'good parent' should do. In God's eyes we are 'evil' indeed (even Jesus said, 'You who are evil.'), and yet He loves us so much that He continues to forgive us (when we are penitent) and work with us where we are. All we have to do to know how much He loves us and wants us to be saved is to look at the miracle of the Incarnation, life and death of Jesus, all for us. If it were up to us, there would be no hope at all but Jesus paid the price for our evil if we are prepared to participate in our own salvation. We deserve death, He gives us Life. [/quote] That view is a bit dark! Do you think God is so incompetent that this is the best he could do. It is often said that if God had wanted us to be angels he would have made us angels. Our earthly defects are burdens given to us so that we can learn to deal with them. God came to earth as a man to teach us how to deal with our earthly afflictions, not to despise us for them but to love us. Whenever someone offers unconditional love to God, heaven throws a party. Who do you admire most? The athlete that easily wins the race or the lame man who struggles against overwhelming odds to walk? Edited December 17, 2011 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1324089747' post='2352523'] That view is a bit dark! Do you think God is so incompetent that this is the best he could do. It is often said that if God had wanted us to be angels he would have made us angels. Our earthly defects are burdens given to us so that we can learn to deal with them. Whenever someone offers unconditional love to God, heaven throws a party. Who do you admire most? The athlete that easily wins the race or the lame man who struggles against overwhelming odds to walk? [/quote] You misunderstand me. I don't see it as dark at all - only realistic, and that is why I said that most people don't accept that we are evil. Our understanding of the word 'evil' these days is reserved for those who are 'truly evil' in that they have no (or almost no) redeeming features. That is not what I mean. Perhaps I should use the word 'sinners' instead. Most Christians accept that we are all 'sinners', but what is sin except evil? It is separation from God, who is Good. True, we are not totally evil, but even that little bit of evil (sin) offends God, and He expects penitence for it. God fully understands that we fall - He did test us in the Garden and we failed, so He understands that (of course He understands everything and knows everything - it isn't easy to talk about God this way). But if you look at it a certain way (oh happy fault) then man's fall is also God's way of showing us how much He loves us. He knows He created us with free will and that weakens us in a way because we can choose evil, but He also provides us with ways to grow stronger and also the means of salvation since we can't make it on our own to the fullness of perfection (that is Him). I dont' see it as negative at all because it only demonstrates God unbearable love for each one of us. But yes, we are evil (e.g. sinners) and God is Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1324090316' post='2352530'] You misunderstand me. I don't see it as dark at all - only realistic, and that is why I said that most people don't accept that we are evil. Our understanding of the word 'evil' these days is reserved for those who are 'truly evil' in that they have no (or almost no) redeeming features. That is not what I mean. Perhaps I should use the word 'sinners' instead. Most Christians accept that we are all 'sinners', but what is sin except evil? It is separation from God, who is Good. True, we are not totally evil, but even that little bit of evil (sin) offends God, and He expects penitence for it. God fully understands that we fall - He did test us in the Garden and we failed, so He understands that (of course He understands everything and knows everything - it isn't easy to talk about God this way). But if you look at it a certain way (oh happy fault) then man's fall is also God's way of showing us how much He loves us. He knows He created us with free will and that weakens us in a way because we can choose evil, but He also provides us with ways to grow stronger and also the means of salvation since we can't make it on our own to the fullness of perfection (that is Him). I dont' see it as negative at all because it only demonstrates God unbearable love for each one of us. But yes, we are evil (e.g. sinners) and God is Good. [/quote] To add to this, which I thought was excellent, here's the Catechism on the Fall. Read the whole Paragraph, it, like the rest of the catechism, is incredible. [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 We have to be careful not to fall into Pelagianism. We always need to remember that no, we are not 'good enough' on our own, and its only if we really screw up that we get in trouble. We are awful sinners and it is only through incomprehensible mercy that we have the chance to be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Very good! The catechism is awsome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1324092234' post='2352544'] To add to this, which I thought was excellent, here's the Catechism on the Fall. Read the whole Paragraph, it, like the rest of the catechism, is incredible. [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm"]http://www.vatican.v...sm/p1s2c1p7.htm[/url] [/quote] Thank you - that was lovely to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1323905529' post='2351388'] Because the death penalty is just in some cases does not make it just in all cases. Like, for instance, when non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, which is almost always the case in a first world country. [/quote] But prisoners can and do escape from prisons, in the first world, in America, and from Maximum Security prisons. And some of those escaped prisoners have murdered after escaping. A simple google search will reveal a number of such cases in recent years. In such cases, obviously non-lethal means were[i] not[/i] sufficient to keep people safe from these criminals' aggression. Granted, such prison breaks are rarer now than in the past, but they still do in fact happen. "Almost always" does not equal "always." And, if the death penalty debate is indeed a closed case, and those who believe capital punishment has legitimate use in today's world are in disobedience to the Church as you accuse, was the Pope lying or joking when he stated that there is a legitimate diversity of opinion concerning application of the death penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1324172053' post='2352980'] But prisoners can and do escape from prisons, in the first world, in America, and from Maximum Security prisons. And some of those escaped prisoners have murdered after escaping. A simple google search will reveal a number of such cases in recent years. In such cases, obviously non-lethal means were[i] not[/i] sufficient to keep people safe from these criminals' aggression. Granted, such prison breaks are rarer now than in the past, but they still do in fact happen. "Almost always" does not equal "always." And, if the death penalty debate is indeed a closed case, and those who believe capital punishment has legitimate use in today's world are in disobedience to the Church as you accuse, was the Pope lying or joking when he stated that there is a legitimate diversity of opinion concerning application of the death penalty? [/quote] You have every right to disagree with the position of the Church on this and still be considered a fine and upstanding Catholic. You can be a liturgical dancer and also be considered a fine and upstanding member of the Faith. You can hold your hands in the Orans position during the Our Father and be considered in full communion. But the Church (whether you like it or not) has been advocating for two popes now to end the use of the death penalty around the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324178665' post='2353040'] You have every right to disagree with the position of the Church on this and still be considered a fine and upstanding Catholic. You can be a liturgical dancer and also be considered a fine and upstanding member of the Faith. You can hold your hands in the Orans position during the Our Father and be considered in full communion. But the Church (whether you like it or not) has been advocating for two popes now to end the use of the death penalty around the world. [/quote] I don't think that's entirely fair. Like Socrates said, the Pope has stated that there can be a legitimate diversity of opinions on this issue. I don't think he's ever said anything that could be taken to say that liturgical dance is something that can be supported (at least I can't imagine that he has). Please note, I'm against the death penalty, I just don't think that your analogies are very fair to Socrates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1324182166' post='2353118'] I don't think that's entirely fair. Like Socrates said, the Pope has stated that there can be a legitimate diversity of opinions on this issue. I don't think he's ever said anything that could be taken to say that liturgical dance is something that can be supported (at least I can't imagine that he has). Please note, I'm against the death penalty, I just don't think that your analogies are very fair to Socrates. [/quote] First of all, you probably don't know this but Socrates is very much into liturgical dance. (and from all reports he's quite good at it) I'm stating other things that one can take a position on and be in full communion of the Church. You can love liturgical dance. You can love having drums played at mass. I would never tell a person who loves a polka mass that they are outside of the Faith. I think the Holy Father would not celebrate a polka mass but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excommunicate the practioners of the occasional polka mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1323901432' post='2351353'] It's good to see that the saints of old had a good sense of humour as well as often being wrong. Question:- When man fell, why did God sentence us to life in prison? And you've neva answered my question: Why did God forbid anyone to kill Cain, preferring him to 'experience' life in prison?[/quote] If the death penalty is inherently evil and unjust, why did God [i]explicitly command[/i] the death penalty for a variety of crimes? This is recorded many times in Genesis, Exodus, and Leviticus. God, who is All Good and All Just, never commands evil. "He that strikes a man with a will to kill him shall be put to death." ~ Exodus 21:12 [quote]You argued with me once that the Catholic Church was always infallible. If it was wrong then how can you say it is not wrong in some ways now? I think this must logically invalidate some of your quotes, in fairness also the oppositions. However 'Nunsense' gives us logic and 'Apo' says logic is the nature of God.[/quote] Not every single statement made by a Pope is infallible (In fact, most statements are not). The Church teaches that papal infallibility applies only when the Pope is speaking [i]ex cathedra[/i], on a doctrine of faith and morals, binding on the whole church. Whether or not modern prisons provide sufficient protection to society from violent criminals is a prudential judgement, and not a binding ex cathedra declaration of dogma. The current Pope, as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has made it clear that his position against use of the death penalty is not binding dogma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324178665' post='2353040'] You have every right to disagree with the position of the Church on this and still be considered a fine and upstanding Catholic. You can be a liturgical dancer and also be considered a fine and upstanding member of the Faith. You can hold your hands in the Orans position during the Our Father and be considered in full communion. But the Church (whether you like it or not) has been advocating for two popes now to end the use of the death penalty around the world. [/quote] Liturgical dancing, etc., has never been advocated by the Church, and has been done only in disobedience. I have yet to see where any Pope has stated that liturgical dance (outside of Africa) is a legitimate liturgical option. [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324183115' post='2353132'] First of all, you probably don't know this but Socrates is very much into liturgical dance. (and from all reports he's quite good at it)[/quote] Yeah, you should see the leotard I wear! [quote]I'm stating other things that one can take a position on and be in full communion of the Church. You can love liturgical dance. You can love having drums played at mass. I would never tell a person who loves a polka mass that they are outside of the Faith. I think the Holy Father would not celebrate a polka mass but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excommunicate the practioners of the occasional polka mass.[/quote] I wouldn't place those dissident liturgisst advocating liturgical dance and other liturgical abuse on the same level as all the Popes, saints, and Doctors of the Church who have advocated capital punishment, but that's just my ignorant lay opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324183115' post='2353132'] I would never tell a person who loves a polka mass that they are outside of the Faith. I think the Holy Father would not celebrate a polka mass but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excommunicate the practioners of the occasional polka mass. [/quote] [url="http://youtu.be/AHgoYeghG6Q"]http://youtu.be/AHgoYeghG6Q[/url] Edited December 19, 2011 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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