Pope Seeks End To Death Penalty

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1323994077' post='2351851']
I have an issue with the modern State being granted the same authority that God does to mete out capital punishment.
[size=1](Oh man, I feel like Sternhauser)[/size]

[size=1][size=4]Aside from that, I'm still going to stick by the Catechism and our past couple of Popes, because I am not into archaeologism. [/size][/size]
[/quote]
Not that God would mete out capital punishment. Any punishment we receive is self inflicted. Which is all the more reason why we shouldn't mete out capital punishment.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1324005660' post='2351944']
Not that God would mete out capital punishment.
[/quote]
Sodom and Gomorrah?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1323901432' post='2351353']
It's good to see that the saints of old had a good sense of humour as well as often being wrong.

Question:- When man fell, why did God sentence us to life in prison? And you've neva answered my question: Why did God forbid anyone to kill Cain, preferring him to 'experience' life in prison?


You argued with me once that the Catholic Church was always infallible. If it was wrong then how can you say it is not wrong in some ways now? I think this must logically invalidate some of your quotes, in fairness also the oppositions.
However 'Nunsense' gives us logic and 'Apo' says logic is the nature of God.
[/quote]


Look, I don't know about logic and theology and all those things. I know about love and mercy and forgiveness. The Popes also supported the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition and a lot of Popes were really not very nice people. That doesn't mean I don't follow the rules, just that I know the rules can and will be changed in some areas over time as human beings grow more in love. Our Holy Father today is a very holy man indeed and he mixes faith with reason but acts out of mercy.

I understand why the death penalty exists, I just think we should err on the side of compassion. The death penalty existed for the woman caught in adultery too but Jesus asked the one without sin to cast the first stone - our God is not only justice, He is also mercy. We haven't always been able to hear the the voice of mercy though.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324005975' post='2351947']
Sodom and Gomorrah?
[/quote]
That's pretty deep stuff Nihil! Lots wife turned back and turned to a pillar salt??? Do you think that Lot and family were the only good people in a whole city? Lot later slept with his daughter. IMO S & G is an allegory for something much deeper. I'm well aware of the popular idea of a God who gives stern just lessons. I prefer that God is love. There's a scripture that tells us what love is. Love is......
But there are also things which Love is not! It is not destructive, it is not vengeful, it does not give up on anyone. And most of all I prefer my image of God to err on the side of amesome!

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324005975' post='2351947']
Sodom and Gomorrah?
[/quote]
Jesus foretold that Peter would deny him. Therefore God knows the future. Why would God need to kill people? If he knew their failure he should not have created them. I believe that God has more influence and control of events than most people realise. If God needs to kill someone it means that in some way he has lost control. And God is always in control!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1324006942' post='2351954']
That's pretty deep stuff Nihil! Lots wife turned back and turned to a pillar salt??? Do you think that Lot and family were the only good people in a whole city? Lot later slept with his daughter. IMO S & G is an allegory for something much deeper. I'm well aware of the popular idea of a God who gives stern just lessons. I prefer that God is love. There's a scripture that tells us what love is. Love is......
But there are also things which Love is not! It is not destructive, it is not vengeful, it does not give up on anyone. And most of all I prefer my image of God to err on the side of amesome!
[/quote]
But it is clear that God does, and has in the past, killed people for their transgressions.
Perfect love doesn't mean killing is out of the question.

I'm not saying either way what I think about modern man (or historical man) using the death penalty, btw.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324007526' post='2351960']
But it is clear that God does, and has in the past, killed people for their transgressions.
Perfect love doesn't mean killing is out of the question.

I'm not saying either way what I think about modern man (or historical man) using the death penalty, btw.
[/quote]


Well I don't argue with this. God does and has killed people. But we are not God. We make mistakes. He doesn't.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1324007987' post='2351965']


Well I don't argue with this. God does and has killed people. But we are not God. We make mistakes. He doesn't.
[/quote]
Absolutely. That's why there's a good debate to be had.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324008160' post='2351968']
Absolutely. That's why there's a good debate to be had.
[/quote]


Hmmmmm

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1323993706' post='2351849']


I cannot except that premise. The state cannot execute someone primarily because of crimes they MAY commit, that would be a grave injustice. Nor can the State execute someone primarily because there is simply not enough good prisons, that would also be a grave injustice. Nor are these two reasons primary justifications in Sacred Tradition. Secondary yes, but not primary, and not required.

The primary purpose of all punishment is retributive.* Whether a child rapist and murderer is living in the 12th century with few good prisons or in the 21st with thousands of good prisons. The passage of time has no real effect on the offense of raping and murdering a child. A child's has the same worth in any age. The act of raping and murdering a child carries the same weight of wickedness. Nor does the passage of time make man any less fallen. So long as man is fallen and man commits murder there will always be need of Capital Punishment for the sack of justice. No matter how many "safe" prisons exist. The punishment should fit the crime, as long as sin tempts man there will be acts of murder where the only punishment equal to murdering and robing a innocent person's life is the life of the murderer who by his wicked act forfeits his right to life.


[size=3]*Evangelium Vitae, supra note 73, 56; 1997 CCC, 2266, and 2,000 plus years of Sacred Tradition. [/size]
[/quote]


Good grief. Do you even read what you are quoting????

From Evangelium Vitae supra note 56

[quote]It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and [b]ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. [/b]Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.[/quote]

Your own notation goes directly against your entire argument about it primarily being retributive. Honestly KFC do you not read or do you assume that none of us will read what you are referencing?? You think you can just randomly throw out references in hopes that we won't call you on it?

Let's continue


[quote][b]2266 [/b]T[b]he efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good.[/b] Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.[/quote]

You use this to argue that the PRIMARY purpose is punishment is retributive yet the Catechism talks about what first? THE SAFEGUARD OF THE COMMON GOOD! And where does it use the word retributive? Can you find it because I can't! Redressing the disorder is not synonymous with retributive. Retributive justice is not spoken about in any of the documents you quote. Yet you use them to support a failed opinion.

Stop making stuff up.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324007526' post='2351960']
But it is clear that God does, and has in the past, killed people for their transgressions.
Perfect love doesn't mean killing is out of the question.

I'm not saying either way what I think about modern man (or historical man) using the death penalty, btw.
[/quote]
How can you love perfectly and kill people? And people argue that God does not destroy souls. He kills people early so he can send them to hell for that extra bit of eternal suffering????? The Spock in me is having an anxiety attack at the thought.
I could be wrong but I suspect that humans having human faults of vengeance, lack of forgiveness, hardness of heart, pride, power, ego etc, tend to try and mould God after themselves. In fact we should be moulding ourselves after God. How can we achieve perfection, if we have a lame view of what that is. I know the Bible is full of stories of God killing people, but then Jesus contradicted many things said in the Bible. On the discussion about 'Kings 2' where the bear mauled youths. Someone quoted a similar incident that happened to Jesus, but in this case he reacted how I would have expected. He said "let them!" He sought no vengeance because he knew that was not necessary. It would come in due time to evil people because of their own folly. And Noah's story is so fraught with contradictions and impossibilities that the thought has occurred to me that it is that way for a purpose. God is incredibly clever to boot.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1324014405' post='2352071']
How can you love perfectly and kill people? And people argue that God does not destroy souls. He kills people early so he can send them to hell for that extra bit of eternal suffering????? The Spock in me is having an anxiety attack at the thought.
[/quote]
In a word, justice.
From the Catechism:

"679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgement on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. the Father has given "all judgement to the Son".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1W.HTM#$V1"]586[/url][/sup] Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1W.HTM#$V2"]587[/url][/sup] By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1W.HTM#$V3"]588[/url]"[/sup]

God can and will judge us, and we will be rewarded or punished based on whether or not we accepted Him. So yes, ultimately those who are damned have damned themselves, but it is God who will mete out the punishment.

"1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2L.HTM#$1BJ"]592[/url][/sup] or immediately,[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2L.HTM#$1BK"]593[/url][/sup]-or immediate and everlasting damnation.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2L.HTM#$1BL"]594[/url]"[/sup]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324021888' post='2352113']
In a word, justice.
From the Catechism:

"679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgement on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. the Father has given "all judgement to the Son".[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1W.HTM#$V1"]586[/url][/sup] Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1W.HTM#$V2"]587[/url][/sup] By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1W.HTM#$V3"]588[/url]"[/sup]

God can and will judge us, and we will be rewarded or punished based on whether or not we accepted Him. So yes, ultimately those who are damned have damned themselves, but it is God who will mete out the punishment.

"1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2L.HTM#$1BJ"]592[/url][/sup] or immediately,[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2L.HTM#$1BK"]593[/url][/sup]-or immediate and everlasting damnation.[sup][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2L.HTM#$1BL"]594[/url]"[/sup]
[/quote]
I have no difficulty with anything written there. In full agreement, it paints a picture of the amesome God that I know. God judges, we punish! Ref. Fr Barron on hell as having the lock on the inside. Question though:- the ccc reads as though Father and Son are separate entities??? I was to understand that Jesus IS God in earthly form. The Trinity is one an' all thet! Another question:- suppose those stories are true and there was a time when it was necessary for God to kill people. Do you think that that is happening in the modern world. If yes can you cite an example and justify it?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1324031931' post='2352132']
I have no difficulty with anything written there. In full agreement, it paints a picture of the amesome God that I know. God judges, we punish! Ref. Fr Barron on hell as having the lock on the inside. Question though:- the ccc reads as though Father and Son are separate entities??? I was to understand that Jesus IS God in earthly form. The Trinity is one an' all thet! Another question:- suppose those stories are true and there was a time when it was necessary for God to kill people. Do you think that that is happening in the modern world. If yes can you cite an example and justify it?
[/quote]
God does punish though. I've given you Sodom and Gomorrah from the Bible. There's also the Flood, and there's the killing of the Egyptian first born. There are tons of examples if that's what you're looking for.
The point is that this right to punish properly belongs to God, and might be delegated to Man in some cases, but that's the issue we have to discuss- exactly how much and in what circumstances has God given Man that authority?


I was going to pick out short passages here, but I think it's more worthwhile just to read the whole thing; here's the fifth chapter of Jeremias.



[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=1#x"][1][/url] Go about through the streets of Jerusalem, and see, and consider, and seek in the broad places thereof, if you can fins a man that executeth judgement, and seeketh faith: and I will be merciful unto it. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=2#x"][2][/url] And though they say: The Lord liveth; this also they will swear falsely. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=3#x"][3][/url] O Lord, thy eyes are upon truth: thou hast struck them, and they have not grieved: thou hast bruised them, and they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than the rock, and they have refused to return. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=4#x"][4][/url] But I said: Perhaps these are poor and foolish, that know not the way of the Lord, the judgement of their God. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=5#x"][5][/url] I will go therefore to the great men, and I will speak to them: for they known the way of the Lord, the judgement of their God: and behold these have together broken the yoke more, and have burst the bonds.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=6#x"][6][/url] Wherefore a lion out of the wood hath slain them, a wolf in the evening, hath spoiled them, a leopard watcheth for their cities: every one that shall go out thence shall be taken, because their transgressions are multiplied, their rebellions are strengthened. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=7#x"][7][/url] How can I be merciful to thee? Thy children have forsaken me, and swear by them that are not gods: I fed them to the full, and they committed adultery, and rioted in the harlot's house. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=8#x"][8][/url] They are become as amorous horses and stallions, every one neighed after his neighbour's wife. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=9#x"][9][/url] Shall I not visit for these things, sayeth the Lord? and shall not my soul take revenge on such a nation? [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=10#x"][10][/url] Scale down the walls thereof, and throw them down, but do not utterly destroy: take away the branches thereof, because they are not the Lord's.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=11#x"][11][/url] For the house of Israel, and the house of Juda have greatly transgressed against me, saith the Lord. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=12#x"][12][/url] They have denied the Lord, and said, It is not he: and the evil shall not come upon us: we shall not see the sword and famine. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=13#x"][13][/url] The prophets have spoken in the wind, and there was no word of God in them: these things therefore shall befall them. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=14#x"][14][/url] Thus saith the Lord the God of hosts: Because you have spoken this word, behold I will make my words in thy mouth as fire, and this people as wood, and it shall devour them. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=15#x"][15][/url] Behold I will bring upon you a nation from afar, O house of Israel, saith the Lord: a strong nation, an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou shalt not know, nor understand what they say.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=16#x"][16][/url] Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all valiant. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=17#x"][17][/url] And they shall eat up thy corn, and thy bread: they shall devour thy sons, and thy daughters: they shall eat up thy flocks, and thy herds: they shall eat thy vineyards, and thy figs: and with the sword they shall destroy thy strong cities, wherein thou trustest. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=18#x"][18][/url] Nevertheless in those days, saith the Lord, I will not bring you to utter destruction. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=19#x"][19][/url] And if you shall say: why hath the Lord our God done all these things to us? Thou shalt say to them: As you have forsaken me, and served a strange god in your own land, so shall you serve strangers in a land that is not your own. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=20#x"][20][/url] Declare ye this to the house of Jacob, and publish it in Juda, saying:
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=21#x"][21][/url] Hear, O foolish people, and without understanding: who have eyes, and see not: and ears, and hear not. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=22#x"][22][/url] Will not you then fear me, saith the Lord: and will you not repent at my presence? I have set the sand a bound for the sea, an everlasting ordinance, which it shall not pass over: and the waves thereof shall toss themselves, and shall not prevail: they shall swell, and shall not pass over it.[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=23#x"][23][/url] But the heart of this people is become hard of belief and provoking, they are revolted and gone away. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=24#x"][24][/url] And they have not said in their heart: let us fear the Lord our God, who giveth us the early and the latter rain in due season: who preserveth for us the fullness of the yearly harvest. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=25#x"][25][/url] Your iniquities have turned these things away, and your sins have withholden good things from you.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=26#x"][26][/url] For among my people are found wicked men, that lie in wait as fowlers, setting snares and traps to catch men. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=27#x"][27][/url] As a net is full of birds, so their houses are full of deceit: therefore are they become great and enriched. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=28#x"][28][/url] They are grown gross and fat: and have most wickedly transgressed my words. They have not judged the cause of the widow, they have not managed the cause of the fatherless, they have not judged the judgement of the poor. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=29#x"][29][/url] Shall I not visit for these things, saith the Lord? or shall not my soul take revenge on such a nation? [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=30#x"][30][/url] Astonishing and wonderful things have been done in the land.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=28&ch=5&l=31#x"][31][/url] The prophets prophesied falsehood, and the priests clapped their hands: and my people loved such things: what then shall be done in the end thereof?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324062742' post='2352335']
God does punish though. I've given you Sodom and Gomorrah from the Bible. There's also the Flood, and there's the killing of the Egyptian first born. There are tons of examples if that's what you're looking for.
The point is that this right to punish properly belongs to God, and might be delegated to Man in some cases, but that's the issue we have to discuss- exactly how much and in what circumstances has God given Man that authority?

[/quote]
Um, this is like I'm having the same conversation on two threads about contradictions in the Bible. With Noahs flood even children laugh at the faulty logistics of a literal version. If God was going to break so many physical and logical accounts, why bother at all? Why not just erase the planet and start again, beaming down some new animals? Once again was Noah and family the only good people out of a multitude?
The curse of the first born was brought about by a stubborn Pharaoh. Firstly the babes being innocent '[i]Their angels behold the face of God in heaven[/i]' And not only did the Pharaoh suffer, but so did many of his subjects who lost their first born, but were innocent of any wrong doing?????
I suppose though that I have to concede in the face of overwhelming cases throughout the Bible, so I will put it to you this way. The old Scripts depict a harsh, bad tempered, punishing God. If this is God I don't like him! The gospel accorded to Jesus however depicts a gentle, compassionate, perfectly loving God, who goes way out of his way to save as many souls as he can.
3 '[i]The God who created the Universe and holds it in existence by his will alone becomes a man too weak to bear a piece of timbers weight. "How could I be your model if I had done it any other way?"[/i]
And
11 [i]Jesus speaks[/i]
[i]I could have summoned a legion of angels to save me from this agonising end, but how else could I demonstrate my love for you ? How could I ask you to endure your pain if I had avoided mine?...[/i]
[i]My reply
I look at you and think, is my soul worth this much? How much you must love me. How can I show my love in return? ...I must accept whatever sickness, torment or agony is yet to come. To every cross I touch my lips that lets me be with you, a co-redeemer of humanity.[/i]
This is the God that I know and love! If God has a sadist-masochistic side, I choose not to see it.

I crossed swords with Fr Barron because he said that tsunamis, brushfires and hurricanes were the Holy Spirit chastising! How come the ones to suffer most are the poor who are usually the most spiritual?


[quote]
And the Lord said to him: If I find in Sodom fifty just within the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=27#x"][27][/url] And Abraham answered, and said: Seeing I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord, whereas I am dust and ashes. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=28#x"][28][/url] What if there be five less than fifty just persons? wilt thou for five and forty destroy the whole city? And he said: I will not destroy it, if I find five and forty. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=29#x"][29][/url] And again he said to him: But if forty be found there, what wilt thou do? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of forty. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=30#x"][30][/url] Lord, saith he, be not angry, I beseech thee, if I speak: What if thirty shall be found there? He answered: I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=31#x"][31][/url] Seeing, saith he, I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord. What if twenty be found there? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=32#x"][32][/url] I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if ten should be found there? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=33#x"][33][/url] And the Lord departed, after he had left speaking to Abraham: and Abraham returned to his place.[/quote]