Believing In Santa

[Norseman82]

Oh, and Nick makes a valid point.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1323132329' post='2345196']
If you guys think teaching children that praying to Jesus will get them new toys is a good idea, then go ahead. I just think its kind of cheap.
[/quote]


Never said anything about praying to Jesus for toys.

Though I agree with your premise, I think I was slightly misunderstanding what you were going for

[Nihil Obstat]

Now that I think about it, I also agree that associating Jesus with the presents is... at least potentially troublesome. I can see it being fine if it's well established that "we're [i]giving[/i] each other presents to celebrate Jesus' birth", but I also see danger as that being interpreted, to a greater or lesser extent as "we're [i]getting[/i] presents because of Jesus' birth."
The first is completely acceptable, but the second is rather bad in terms of the actual point of the holiday.
Based on that, I would shy away from the initially plausible compromise of telling the kids that it's God or Jesus sending them presents. They were already given the ultimate gift which was the Incarnation, and I would avoid anything that remotely runs the risk of marginalizing that. It would just be confusing for a child to be told that Jesus is giving them presents to celebrate His birth. That's kind of wacky. They should associate gift giving with joy and gratitude that accompanies the solemnity, implicitly at first, and gradually more explicitly. So the holiday should revolve around the liturgical aspects. "Right now we're preparing for something really important, and these things at Mass today are showing us how to prepare." "We're going to Mass now, and afterwards we're celebrating as a family because of what we experienced at Mass."


ETA: Geez, I've been writing too much freakin' philosophy. Who wants to read my paper on the identity shared between the atman and the brahman and its implications on the direct moral standing of living entities in nature within the Hindu tradition after I've submitted it?

Edited December 6, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[Papist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1323132329' post='2345196']
If you guys think teaching children that praying to Jesus will get them new toys is a good idea, then go ahead. I just think its kind of cheap.
[/quote]
This is correct and not just cheap, but dangerous. However, I believe they were responding to, "richer friends deserve more and better presents."

[homeschoolmom]

I struggle with the whole idea of making gift lists at all. It can quickly and easily slip in a child's mind (and many adults' minds as well) into an order form. My neighbor will return any gift her kids receive in their family gift exchange if it wasn't on her kids' lists. I have a problem with that.

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323177961' post='2345443']
This is correct and not just cheap, but dangerous. However, I believe they were responding to, "richer friends deserve more and better presents."
[/quote]
If you think kids don't compare, you're crazy. A child who believes that Santa or Jesus left a game of Monopoly and a new bathrobe at one house and an XBox w/ a kinect bundle and tickets for a trip to Disneyworld at another is going to wonder why that is. "Jesus knows your needs" is not a very satsifying answer to a disappointed six year old.

[bernadette d]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1323120504' post='2345100']
ok. I love you Nick, but this is bull.

I grew up in a family that was ALWAYS strapped for cash. Literally, I watched my parents pay for milk with change they found.

Not once growing up did I think that Jesus thought my rich friends deserve more and better presents. In fact, Christmas was not ever just about the presents. Some years, we got fewer presents. Some years more. But never once did any of us think those presents were "deserved". Presents AREN'T something you deserve. They are something people who love you go out of their way to make happen. And if there are children who think Jesus thinks other people deserve more because of how many toys they got, those kids are really not getting the point, anyway. Santa or no Santa.
[/quote]
I think this is a really lovely post, thank you.

[Sarah147]

I didn't notice where all this business about presents being from God in a Santa kind of way thing started. Not a good thing.

Understanding that everything is a blessing from God, everything, your family, your friends, your home, your body, your food, etc. is a good part of being Catholic. But it shouldn't be understood in a cash machine kind of way. Maybe people should make "what I'm thankful for in my life" lists and count their blessings.

I also think it's a Protestant thing to take literally the verse about "ask and you shall receive." That is most of all about spiritual things.

Edited December 6, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[Papist]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1323178968' post='2345450']
I struggle with the whole idea of making gift lists at all. It can quickly and easily slip in a child's mind (and many adults' minds as well) into an order form. My neighbor will return any gift her kids receive in their family gift exchange if it wasn't on her kids' lists. I have a problem with that.


If you think kids don't compare, you're crazy. A child who believes that Santa or Jesus left a game of Monopoly and a new bathrobe at one house and an XBox w/ a kinect bundle and tickets for a trip to Disneyworld at another is going to wonder why that is. "Jesus knows your needs" is not a very satsifying answer to a disappointed six year old.
[/quote]
All I said was that I think people's response was to "richer friends deserve more and better presents.". I do not understand how you can take this as me agreeing or disagreeing with this statement.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323179945' post='2345461']
All I said was that I think people's response was to "richer friends deserve more and better presents.". I do not understand how you can take this as me agreeing or disagreeing with this statement.
[/quote]
I didn't mean you specifically. You posted while I was typing and I grabbed it to quote. I didn't mean *you personally* in my response. Sorry about that.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1323178968' post='2345450']
I struggle with the whole idea of making gift lists at all. It can quickly and easily slip in a child's mind (and many adults' minds as well) into an order form. My neighbor will return any gift her kids receive in their family gift exchange if it wasn't on her kids' lists. I have a problem with that.


If you think kids don't compare, you're crazy. A child who believes that Santa or Jesus left a game of Monopoly and a new bathrobe at one house and an XBox w/ a kinect bundle and tickets for a trip to Disneyworld at another is going to wonder why that is. "Jesus knows your needs" is not a very satsifying answer to a disappointed six year old.
[/quote]

I agree. I never ask my kids for lists or encourage them to write one. Sometimes they've expressed a desire for something, or a family member asks what they want I may ask them (because chances are I've already bought them everything I want them to have), but there is no list making. I use my mom-powers to Think about the type of gifts that would be amesome for each one of my kids and then make sure they each get the same number of presents (be it 3 or 13) because I am all about equality. Matt sometimes cracks jokes about my determination to do this, but I hate the idea of short-changing any of my kids (not as in them not getting enough, but one getting more than another). I know sometimes it happens (it did in my family despite my mom's best efforts), and kids definitely notice the difference between what other people get--which is why mine know everything has come from us and not Santa or Jesus. The know WHY they are getting it and WHO it's from.

I agree with what Missionseeker said about "deserving" presents (or, rather, not deserving them) AND what J_lol said about not writing wish lists for Jesus.

[Maggyie]

I don't know, I think it's darling (and a good spiritual exercise) to have children write out their prayers to Jesus. A little child has to ask his Father for everything. I know I have badgered Jesus for everything from growth in patience to being able to afford a semester abroad. Whenever I get that feeling that something might be too "material" to talk to Jesus about, I remember to take a St. Therese approach to things. A little one prattles to her Father about everything and doesn't get embarrassed.

I know a lady who has a constant conversation with the Lord, almost stream of consciousness, and we were getting in late on a trip to Philly and I heard her say "Lord I am so very hungry. Please Jesus let the place with the good coagulated milk steaks still be open. I'll feel so annoyed if it's not." This made me laugh but somehow I think she had the right idea. I don't think Jesus just wants to hear our nice noble prayers for humility and faith and other spiritual virtues, I think He loves to hear it all!!! Including the prayers for a new bike or an erector set or a yummy sandwich. I think it pleases Him greatly. I believe the difference with the Protestants is that some of them do have a "gimme" approach where if you just believe hard enough, the million dollars and the big house will be yours. In reality, if whatever it is, isn't good for you or meant for you, He will say no.

It doesn't have to be material goods, either. I was taking care of a little boy whose family did this and his mother was nearing the end of her pregnancy, he was VERY excited about it but it seemed to be taking forever to him. You know how little-kid time is, a month is foreeeeever. When his mom woke him up in the morning, first thing he would say was "Is the baby here today?"

We were going to write our Christmas prayer to Jesus and he decided he wanted to ask for his little brother for Christmas. I was a little concerned because his mother was due the week after Christmas but I thought, whatever. He had only learned to write a little bit so I helped him pen in his stilted lettering "Dear Jesus I love you Love Sam " and he drew a picture of a baby. Well the child came Dec 23 and he was pleased as punch!

[IcePrincessKRS]

I don't think it's an issue to write [i]prayers[/i] to Jesus (even the sort that ask for things). I do find it problematic to write a gift wish list to Him as though He were Santa, though. I mean, if one of my daughters brought me a piece of paper and it said "Dear Jesus, I want a new doll and some dress ups for Christmas. Amen. Love, G." I'd have a problem with that.

[MissScripture]

I definitely agree with the people who have said that lists can be seen as order forms, and I've seen that happen. But I've also written lists all my life, and never expected to get everything off of there. But maybe that was just because we knew is was just for ideas.
And kind of going along with Maggie's story, I think it's somewhat profound, sometimes, to ask kids what they want. When my brother was little, a little boy was abducted near our house. That year for Christmas, my brother wrote a letter to Santa telling him all he wanted for Christmas was for the little boy to know we were praying for him to be returned home and for him to be brought home.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I guess wish lists is just a foreign concept to me because we never made them. My mom has said a few times that she was only asked for a specific gift once (my brother wanted a Furby). Well, I know that's not true because when I was 6 I asked for a Chia Pet and didn't get it, and my other sister asked for a Craftmatic Adjustable Bed (gotta love the power of infomercials!) the same year. All the same, she received very few specific requests over the years. We always enjoyed the surprise of whatever glorious thing awaited us under the tree. As some of us became adults and had families of our own we did a family Kris Kringle for a few years and the part I truly hated about it was trying to think up a list of 3 items I'd like.

I love the idea of the prayerful sort of letter that you're describing, I'm just afraid it wouldn't be the norm.

[MissScripture]

I don't think my mom prompted the letter, actually. I think he just decided to write it on his own, though my mom always asks us for Christmas lists. But I definitely think that the fact that she never strictly stuck to a list helped us not view it as a list of demands. I mean, if there was something (reasonable) that we really wanted, we would most likely get it, but we definitely did not get everything, and a lot of the stuff we got wasn't on our lists. I think it would have taken a lot of the fun out of it if everything was from our lists. Where's the surprise in that? They didn't go by numbers of gifts, but more by price (spending the same amount on each of us, approximately), though they tried to make it somewhat close, so someone didn't end up with 5 and someone with 20 gifts.

And I typically hate coming up with Christmas lists, though I know how helpful it is, when you have those impossible to buy for people. Like my brother. It's not that I don't know what he likes, I just don't know what he has already, so I don't want to give him something he already has.