stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323204436' post='2345719'] So then you must disagree with any law that prohibits someone from marrying his 8 year old child, or pet monkey or even his 64oz bottle of ketchup. If not, then how are you and that intolerant Christian bigot different? What legal recognision and benefits are you referring to? [/quote] I am not against incest, but I do think children are not old enough to make certain decisions for themselves, this is currently recognised by government as well and psychologists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323206189' post='2345735'] I would like to convince people not to put restrictions into law. If you don't agree with gay marriage then don't get married to someone of the same sex, but please don't force others to live by your "morals". [/quote] By saying such, aren't you forcing your morals on me? Edited December 6, 2011 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323207760' post='2345751'] By saying such, aren't you forcing your morals on me? [/quote] I don't have morals, I am asking you not to enforce via law certain restrictions onto certain people, especially when this doesn't impact you. Why do you want to force to remove choice from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323107219' post='2344951'] I don't think we need a god authored moral code for us humans to realise that in general murder, rape and child pornography is [b]undesirable[/b]. There are some circumstances where most of society agrees with murder e.g. abortion, especially in cases where the fetus has serious issues. I think murder is [b]desirable[/b] in terms of euthanasia and in order to terminate the threat some [b]undesirable[/b] people whom commit terrible repetitive crimes. I've even had a conversation with a Catholic pro gun person whom said they would shoot a person if they saw them stealing their car (this would also be a form of murder, however I don't condone this one).[/quote] A desire based code of laws... What if society finds it desirable to round up and gas atheists, "for the good of society" of course? If the government legalizes it, does that make it just? Some people desired cheap labor, so government allowed slavery. Just? [i]Relativism, by indiscriminately giving value to practically everything, has made 'experience' all-important. Yet experiences, detached from any consideration of what is good or true, can lead not to genuine freedom, but to moral or intellectual confusion, to a lowering of standards, to a loss of self-respect.[/i] [i]- Pope Benedict XVI @ World Youth Day[/i] "Experience" or "desire", the quote is true when using either word. [quote]As humans we are intelligent enough to know that if we don't like things forced on us then others wont like things forced on them. This is called the golden rule, it does not require a god author. As members of society (humans are very social animals) we generally take care of our own, we certainly elect to have leaders that will help us to function as a society. When we walk through the streets, we want to be safe, we want our children to be safe, hence we want a society with rules to improve the safety of ourselves and our children. Using our capacity to think things through and learn from the past we are able to come up with a pretty decent set of rules to build a functioning society. I don't think we need a god author of a static old book from which to interpret morality. [/quote] You say this after we come out of one of the most violent centuries in history? WWII Germany took care of its own, and so did every despot in history. Edited December 6, 2011 by kamiller42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323200787' post='2345673'] I personally disagree with Catholic teaching that homosexual sex is wrong. I personally disagree with anyone who acts to get a law in place to make or keep this illeagal. I will oppose any such law and I will continually discuss the merits of the freedom of people to make their own life choices and I will also continually discuss the merits of having a minamalist government enforcing law for a functioning society not a moral one. [/quote] But you can't be 'right' and we can't be 'wrong', correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323213969' post='2345792'] But you can't be 'right' and we can't be 'wrong', correct? [/quote] By whose standard do we declare something to be right or wrong? It would be nice that people are open to discussing differences of opinion, but you don't have to come out of discussion with everyone aligned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323194539' post='2345573'] Federal recognition of one's marriage isn't a right, heterosexual or homosexual. [/quote] [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323195530' post='2345590'] It's not a legal right. But in my opinion everything is a right. [/quote] So everyone should get whatever they want from the government. We get it. Edited December 7, 2011 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1323211329' post='2345770'] What if society finds it desirable to round up and gas atheists, "for the good of society" of course? If the government legalizes it, does that make it just? Some people desired cheap labor, so government allowed slavery. Just? [/quote] What do you mean by just? Is there an objective just? I don't think so. [quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1323211329' post='2345770'] [i]Relativism, by indiscriminately giving value to practically everything, has made 'experience' all-important. Yet experiences, detached from any consideration of what is good or true, can lead not to genuine freedom, but to moral or intellectual confusion, to a lowering of standards, to a loss of self-respect.[/i] [i]- Pope Benedict XVI @ World Youth Day[/i] [/quote] This is very much a subjective statement. "can not lead to genuine freedom" how do we know this? What evidence is provided to support this? "[i]but to moral or intellectual confusion[/i]" In my opinion there are no objective morals. I can't have moral confusion if I don't agree with the concept of morals. "[i]a lowering of standards[/i]" This is a subjective statement. By what are we assessing standards and change in standards? Would everyone agree that standards have lowered or just individuals or certain groups? "[i]to a loss of self-respect[/i]" This has the same issues as assessing a lowering of standards. I understand that Catholics may find [i]Pope Benedict XVI's [/i]statements profound, but to me these are highly ambiguous, haven't been demonstrated to be based on evidence and thus meaningless. Is he talking about his own opinion or is he presenting his statement as a universal truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323206189' post='2345735'] I would like to convince people not to put restrictions into law. If you don't agree with gay marriage then don't get married to someone of the same sex, but please don't force others to live by your "morals". [/quote] Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323216775' post='2345820'] So everyone should get whatever they want from the government. [/quote] Wouldn't that be nice, no taxes, benefits galore, no criminal convictions, woohoo! If you are interested in conversation, I'd recommend reading my posts in this thread. My position is not that government should never intervene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323217406' post='2345829'] Wouldn't that be nice, no taxes, benefits galore, no criminal convictions, woohoo! If you are interested in conversation, I'd recommend reading my posts in this thread. My position is not that government should never intervene. [/quote] Currently, homosexuals can live together and sodomize each other all they like. The state doesn't owe them any special benefits or recognition for this behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323210131' post='2345766'] I don't have morals, I am asking you not to enforce via law certain restrictions onto certain people, especially when this doesn't impact you. Why do you want to force to remove choice from them? [/quote] But it does have impact on others in society. Look into why there is no more Catholic Adoption Agencies in Massachusetts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323217267' post='2345828'] Why not? [/quote] Why shouldn't you force your morals onto others? You will certainly find opposition and conflict with members of your own society, especially those impacted and also with those that are freinds with those that are impacted and even with those who agree with the golden rule (treat others as you would like to be treated). I would have thought (in relation to yourself) Christianity would have promoted an ideal to not impose your will on others, but then again I am no Christianity expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323218159' post='2345840'] But it does have impact on others in society. Look into why there is no more Catholic Adoption Agencies in Massachusetts. [/quote] There are religious groups that provide benefit to society but only if they get there way on certain things. It is a type of blackmail. Society ought not to bow down to blackmail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323218234' post='2345841'] Why shouldn't you force your morals onto others? You will certainly find opposition and conflict with members of your own society, especially those impacted and also with those that are freinds with those that are impacted and even with those who agree with the golden rule (treat others as you would like to be treated). I would have thought (in relation to yourself) Christianity would have promoted an ideal to not impose your will on others, but then again I am no Christianity expert. [/quote] "Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household." ~ Matthew 10:34-35 You can't force me to vote as you wish, if you want to talk about "imposing wills." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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