Nihil Obstat Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Stevil, the real essential point I'm hammering at is this: [b]Do you think we are wrong?[/b] If so, I see this as contradictory, but if not then it seems that the most you can do is say that you personally prefer that homosexuals have legal recognition of their 'marriages', but that our opposite argument is equally 'right'/valid. If that's the case, what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323194475' post='2345571'] Gay people in many countries cannot choose to get married. Governments and voters have taken that choice away from them. [/quote] the obama administration may change that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323196553' post='2345602'] That choice does not exist, just as my choice to get pregnant. [/quote] One is a human made rule, the other is biology. [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323196680' post='2345605'] Government is not required for marriage. God is. [/quote] I am married, I signed a government document, god was not invited nor present at my wedding. I have no agreement, no contract, no belief in any god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323198010' post='2345630'] Stevil, the real essential point I'm hammering at is this: [b]Do you think we are wrong?[/b] If so, I see this as contradictory, but if not then it seems that the most you can do is say that you personally prefer that homosexuals have legal recognition of their 'marriages', but that our opposite argument is equally 'right'/valid. If that's the case, what's the point? [/quote] I personally disagree with Catholic teaching that homosexual sex is wrong. I personally disagree with anyone who acts to get a law in place to make or keep this illeagal. I will oppose any such law and I will continually discuss the merits of the freedom of people to make their own life choices and I will also continually discuss the merits of having a minamalist government enforcing law for a functioning society not a moral one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 And in a free society you are certainly welcome to express those opinions and work to make them so. As we are to oppose those opinions and work against you. Getting a majority of people to agree with you will make this easier for you, of course, but it will not make you right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1323201299' post='2345678'] Getting a majority of people to agree with you will make this easier for you, of course, but it will not make you right. [/quote] Exactly, in my opinion there is no objective right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323200556' post='2345671'] One is a human made rule, the other is biology. I am married, I signed a government document, god was not invited nor present at my wedding. I have no agreement, no contract, no belief in any god. [/quote] Really? Marriage is a human made rule. So, you are saying that this human who made this marriage rule up got it wrong when making it between man and woman only? For what purpose does two people have to get married if not asking God to unite them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323201977' post='2345688'] Exactly, in my opinion there is no objective right or wrong. [/quote] Do you saying this objectively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323201986' post='2345689'] Really? Marriage is a human made rule. So, you are saying that this human who made this marriage rule up got it wrong when making it between man and woman only? For what purpose does two people have to get married if not asking God to unite them? [/quote] People created the tradition of marriage. I disagree with any laws that exclude polygamists and homosexuals from partaking of this tradition and the legal benefits that come with a legally recognised marriage. I got married as I see value in the tradition of expressing my commitment to my loved one in front of my family, her family and our friends. I also see value in the legal recognision and benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323202114' post='2345690'] Do you saying this objectively? [/quote] Hmmm, are you really wanting to be engaged in conversation or are you being a bit silly here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323202889' post='2345696'] People created the tradition of marriage. I disagree with any laws that exclude polygamists and homosexuals from partaking of this tradition and the legal benefits that come with a legally recognised marriage. I got married as I see value in the tradition of expressing my commitment to my loved one in front of my family, her family and our friends. I also see value in the legal recognision and benefits. [/quote] So then you must disagree with any law that prohibits someone from marrying his 8 year old child, or pet monkey or even his 64oz bottle of ketchup. If not, then how are you and that intolerant Christian bigot different? What legal recognision and benefits are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323202965' post='2345699'] Hmmm, are you really wanting to be engaged in conversation or are you being a bit silly here? [/quote] I just thought it curious that you stated objectively that "there is no objective right or wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Stevil, what's the point, then? If we both have two different opinions and neither is any better than the other, other than the fact that each of us picks one or the other, what's the point of trying to convince anyone to abandon their opinion? You have to have made a decision to be "for" one position or the other. Why bother taking a position on anything if no stance is better than another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323205979' post='2345731'] Stevil, what's the point, then? If we both have two different opinions and neither is any better than the other, other than the fact that each of us picks one or the other, what's the point of trying to convince anyone to abandon their opinion? You have to have made a decision to be "for" one position or the other. Why bother taking a position on anything if no stance is better than another? [/quote] I would like to convince people not to put restrictions into law. If you don't agree with gay marriage then don't get married to someone of the same sex, but please don't force others to live by your "morals". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323204516' post='2345720'] I just thought it curious that you stated objectively that "there is no objective right or wrong." [/quote] "you stated objectively" these are your words not mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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