Basilisa Marie Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323107219' post='2344951'] I don't think we need a god authored moral code for us humans to realise that in general murder, rape and child pornography is undesirable. There are some circumstances where most of society agrees with murder e.g. abortion, especially in cases where the fetus has serious issues. I think murder is desirable in terms of euthanasia and in order to terminate the threat some undesirable people whom commit terrible repetitive crimes. I've even had a conversation with a Catholic pro gun person whom said they would shoot a person if they saw them stealing their car (this would also be a form of murder, however I don't condone this one). As humans we are intelligent enough to know that if we don't like things forced on us then others wont like things forced on them. This is called the golden rule, it does not require a god author. As members of society (humans are very social animals) we generally take care of our own, we certainly elect to have leaders that will help us to function as a society. When we walk through the streets, we want to be safe, we want our children to be safe, hence we want a society with rules to improve the safety of ourselves and our children. Using our capacity to think things through and learn from the past we are able to come up with a pretty decent set of rules to build a functioning society. I don't think we need a god author of a static old book from which to interpret morality. [/quote] But see, if you look at history there are plenty of examples of people abusing power, and we just keep repeating the same wrong things over and over in different situations. Hardly any examples of people actually learning from the past in any meaningful way. Most societies since tribal times did not elect to have leaders - these leaders used force to assert their position and power to maintain it. Right, you don't believe that we need a deity in order to have a code of morality. But is there even a code? Is this code determined by the society? If you're saying that it's determined by the society, then would you agree that there are some things that all societies deem "undesirable" (to use your word)? And I wouldn't call any book static without having studied it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323107360' post='2344953'] You think it's undesirable. Do you think it's wrong? Or is it more... ill-advised than wrong? Would you tell a murderer "what you did was wrong"? Or would you just say "that was kind of lame man, I don't personally agree with you murdering people"? If things are merely undesirable and not actually wrong, what right do you have to condemn it? [/quote] Society has rules to help it function. There are rules against murder, offenders go to prison in order to protect society from them and as a deterrent for would be offenders. There is no objective right or wrong, there will be no judgement after death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323109819' post='2344975'] Society has rules to help it function. There are rules against murder, offenders go to prison in order to protect society from them and as a deterrent for would be offenders. There is no objective right or wrong, there will be no judgement after death. [/quote] Is protecting society a good thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322993707' post='2344330'] All humans are disordered from the perspective of original sin. I don't understand what that has to do with homosexuals in the priesthood. [/quote] Do you believe there are such disorders that should prohibit a man from becoming a priest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323108649' post='2344962'] But see, if you look at history there are plenty of examples of people abusing power, and we just keep repeating the same wrong things over and over in different situations. Hardly any examples of people actually learning from the past in any meaningful way. Most societies since tribal times did not elect to have leaders - these leaders used force to assert their position and power to maintain it. Right, you don't believe that we need a deity in order to have a code of morality. But is there even a code? Is this code determined by the society? If you're saying that it's determined by the society, then would you agree that there are some things that all societies deem "undesirable" (to use your word)? And I wouldn't call any book static without having studied it first. [/quote] All books are static, they don't rewrite themselves. Law is organic, especially common law. There have been many people in power whom have abused their power. The world is advancing and improving, in terms of equality. Most of the world no longer condone slavery, most developed countries give all adults the right to vote (it was not that long ago that women or certain races were not allowed to vote. Most countries don't outlaw homosexual activities. We no longer impose "social rules" that men should go to work and women should stay home and look after the house and babies. America has finally voted a non white into office, maybe one day they will vote a woman or an Indian, or Chinese, or Hispanic, maybe a Jew, or Muslim, or Atheist, maybe even a gay person. We no longer condone invade and conquer mentality in order to expand ones empire. We are maturing as a society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323115088' post='2345037'] The world is advancing and improving, in terms of equality. Most of the world no longer condone slavery, most developed countries give all adults the right to vote (it was not that long ago that women or certain races were not allowed to vote. Most countries don't outlaw homosexual activities. We no longer impose "social rules" that men should go to work and women should stay home and look after the house and babies. America has finally voted a non white into office, maybe one day they will vote a woman or an Indian, or Chinese, or Hispanic, maybe a Jew, or Muslim, or Atheist, maybe even a gay person. We no longer condone invade and conquer mentality in order to expand ones empire. We are maturing as a society. [/quote] If there is no right and wrong, how can there be good and not good/bad? How can the world be improving, if there is nothing objectively right to which it can improve? Why is racial equality desirable, if there is no objective right? How can we 'mature' if one end is as good as another? "Development" is an absurdity in a world where there is no objective right, because movement in one direction is equivalent to movement in another. You said that "the law" determines what is best for a society, but the law merely follows where society is already going. You said that as a society we're maturing, but that's not possible if there is no right and wrong. Society today must, by your logic, be exactly as proportionately right or wrong as society 100 years ago, 500 years ago, 2000 years ago, no matter what changes took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323115088' post='2345037'] The world is advancing and improving, in terms of equality. Most of the world no longer condone slavery, most developed countries give all adults the right to vote (it was not that long ago that women or certain races were not allowed to vote. Most countries don't outlaw homosexual activities. We no longer impose "social rules" that men should go to work and women should stay home and look after the house and babies. America has finally voted a non white into office, maybe one day they will vote a woman or an Indian, or Chinese, or Hispanic, maybe a Jew, or Muslim, or Atheist, maybe even a gay person. We no longer condone invade and conquer mentality in order to expand ones empire. We are maturing as a society. [/quote] Well, the world's a big place. I realize you're focusing on the 'civilized' part of the world, but still, you've basically described Western Europe, Canada and the US. Not...the rest of the world. Whether or not the rest of the world is going to become 'more like us' is anyone's guess. But it's generally not safe to assume what the future of a culture or society holds. It *might* go that way...or, it might not. After all, Western Europe *may* find itself with a growing minority from the Middle East that will have greater and greater impacts on culture. There are places in the world right now where you can get the death penalty for homosexual behavior (mostly the horn of Africa and the Middle East). There are plenty of places where it is illegal. As for the right to vote...women were not allowed to vote in the first Iraqi elections that the US organized. (The ones where you got ink on your hand if you voted). And yes, I realize that countries like Pakistan have had a female president before the US has, but there are plenty of places in the world where a right to vote is meaningless. And I don't just mean North Korea and Zimbabwe. I mean China, where it *doesn't matter* who you vote for, and the young people are completely jaded by the political process. 1.6 of the 6 billion people in the world live in China, and another billion live in India. 2.6/6 billion is 43% of the world's population. That's...a lot of people. In India, you have arranged marriages with dowries expected to pay the groom's family. Unmarried men and women are not meant to be seen socializing together in public; it would be scandalous and is not done. Homosexual actions were illegal there until...one year ago? I think. Not that anyone would notice you were gay, but still, if you think India is an example of enlightenment where homosexuality is accepted by the culture...not so much. Sex selection of babies is commonplace in both China and India, so that their populations are becoming skewed towards males. Anyway, we could go on and on, but I just thought it was important to point out that the generalizations you have made do not even apply evenly across the developed world, let alone all people everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323115088' post='2345037'] All books are static, they don't rewrite themselves. The world is advancing and improving, in terms of equality. Most of the world no longer condone slavery, most developed countries give all adults the right to vote (it was not that long ago that women or certain races were not allowed to vote. Most countries don't outlaw homosexual activities. We no longer impose "social rules" that men should go to work and women should stay home and look after the house and babies. America has finally voted a non white into office, maybe one day they will vote a woman or an Indian, or Chinese, or Hispanic, maybe a Jew, or Muslim, or Atheist, maybe even a gay person. We no longer condone invade and conquer mentality in order to expand ones empire. [/quote] Why are all those good things? [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323115088' post='2345037'] We are maturing as a society. [/quote] Seriously. Have you seen what's on cable TV lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323118506' post='2345075'] Seriously. Have you seen what's on cable TV lately? [/quote] JERSEY SHORE REPRESENTS THE PINNACLE OF CULTURAL MATURITY AND PROGRESS, YOU IGNORANT CHRISTIAN BIGOT! I don't like this meme picture much, but it seems apropos right now. [img]http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/126/314/3cd8a33a.png[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323115088' post='2345037'] All books are static, they don't rewrite themselves. [/quote] Books don't rewrite themselves, but our understanding of what books say grows and develops over time. In this way, books (especially books like the Bible) are dynamic. The only "holy book" you could make any real argument for being static is the Qur'an, because that's the only one (out of the big three, Judaism, Christianity and Islam) that is meant to be taken as the [i]literal [/i]dictation of God. But even with the Qur'an, there is area for differing interpretation. That the Bible is easy to understand and says exactly what it means is one of the biggest misconceptions about that book today. [quote] Law is organic, especially common law. [/quote] Can you clarify what you mean by common law? [quote] We are maturing as a society. [/quote] The very act of maturing implies that there is some kind of direction pointing towards an ideal. Does this ideal exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 [quote]We no longer impose "social rules" that men should go to work and women should stay home and look after the house and babies.[/quote] Oh, no, we're of course very enlightened and don't pass that outdated message on to our female children. Instead, we tell them that to be 'real women' they must be well accessorized and skinny. You don't have to stay home and raise kids...you can go shopping! I'm sorry, but that's really empty and much more insulting than the old-fashioned version. Change is not automatically better. And yes, I'm not suggesting that every American family has bought into the Disney Princess/ Barbie culture...but...those companies aren't going out of business, either. But just because some elements of society behave in a more 'enlightened' manner does not mean that we've actually evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323118870' post='2345081'] Can you clarify what you mean by common law? [/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1323128236' post='2345136'] Oh, no, we're of course very enlightened and don't pass that outdated message on to our female children. Instead, we tell them that to be 'real women' they must be well accessorized and skinny. You don't have to stay home and raise kids...you can go shopping! [/quote] Instead of telling them what they can and can't do, they are given choice, just like the men. Obviously there are still small pockets in society which are resistant to change, but thankfully these are dwindling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323118870' post='2345081'] The very act of maturing implies that there is some kind of direction pointing towards an ideal. Does this ideal exist? [/quote] It depends on whose ideal you are talking about. There is no universal ideal. I am all for minimal intervention of government, allowing people to have choice, responsibility, accountability, opportunity and to be in control of their own chosen destiny. Balancing a safe society with a free society is a difficult task as it is impossible to get everyone to agree on anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323151094' post='2345398'] It depends on whose ideal you are talking about. There is no universal ideal. I am all for minimal intervention of government, allowing people to have choice, responsibility, accountability, opportunity and to be in control of their own chosen destiny. Balancing a safe society with a free society is a difficult task as it is impossible to get everyone to agree on anything. [/quote] If there's no universal ideal, then what gives your ideas any more weight than ours? Aren't our ideals on exactly equal footing with your own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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