Catholic And Gay

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323022323' post='2344391']
There is no other authority.
The law in my country says that it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a person under 16 years of age. This age limit is somewhat arbitrary. If you got a group of people to write down the age limit for sex, I'm pretty sure you will get a variety of ages written down.

But I do hope for law change on some things. I hope gay people get the legal right for full blown secular marrage, I hope euthanasia become leegal...
[/quote]
So then for you, right and wrong is what the law says is right and wrong. You accept this... on faith? What if the government tells you to do what is wrong, or not to do what is right?
How is right and wrong determined in your world, with no authority higher than the State?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323033827' post='2344516']
So then for you, right and wrong is what the law says is right and wrong. You accept this... on faith? What if the government tells you to do what is wrong, or not to do what is right?
How is right and wrong determined in your world, with no authority higher than the State?
[/quote]
Yes, I'm curious to know whether you [stevil] thinks murder is wrong, and if so, why?

[BigJon16]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323020032' post='2344378']

Part of the problem is that if a man with homosexual attractions wasn't sufficiently mature in his spirituality and his sexuality, seminary would just post one giant temptation. I mean, think about it - these men are joining a live-in school where they receive an intense spiritual and theological education, and they're bound to (and encouraged to) form very strong brotherly friendships with their fellow seminarians. If I were a man with same sex attraction, don't know if I could handle not forming any "special relationships" with a brother seminarian. It'd just be much easier if sexual attraction wasn't an issue, you know? A man would have to be incredibly mature and disciplined in his own sexuality to be able to handle making chaste friendships in that setting. That's not to say that a man dealing with same sex attractions couldn't ever become a priest - jamesmerton, the blogger I linked to above, is one of those young men discerning the priesthood (with a spiritual director, of course). It's a lot to deal with, though, on top of the rigorous training priesthood requires.

[/quote]

Everyone has their own Cross to bear, and it shouldn't ever get in the way of their Vocation. And we shouldn't say that it could.

There is a documentary titled "The Saint of 9/11". Its about Fr. Mychal Judge, who was the Chaplain in the FDNY. He died in the attacks on September 11th while trying to help out in the towers. The documentary notes on many things, how he was a very great and devoted priest, how he served many people in his community, not just firefighters and their families, but many homosexuals. It also notes that he himself was a homosexual. Its a really beautiful and inspirational story, that just goes to show, that our crosses cant get in the way of God's plan, and in fact, our crosses are a major part of God's plan.

Here's the a link to the site: [url="http://www.saintof9-11.com/saint/"]http://www.saintof9-11.com/saint/[/url]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1323040261' post='2344548']

Everyone has their own Cross to bear, and it shouldn't ever get in the way of their Vocation. And we shouldn't say that it could.

There is a documentary titled "The Saint of 9/11". Its about Fr. Mychal Judge, who was the Chaplain in the FDNY. He died in the attacks on September 11th while trying to help out in the towers. The documentary notes on many things, how he was a very great and devoted priest, how he served many people in his community, not just firefighters and their families, but many homosexuals. It also notes that he himself was a homosexual. Its a really beautiful and inspirational story, that just goes to show, that our crosses cant get in the way of God's plan, and in fact, our crosses are a major part of God's plan.

Here's the a link to the site: [url="http://www.saintof9-11.com/saint/"]http://www.saintof9-11.com/saint/[/url]
[/quote]
The fact that the film was sponsored by the Equality Forum - a secular "nonprofit organization whose mission is to advance national and international gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) civil rights through education" - makes me a little wary...

[Nihil Obstat]

What Fr. Judge did on September 11 was certainly heroic, but he's far from uncontroversial. For instance I've heard he was rather closely linked to the Dignity organization. That's the bad one; Courage is the good one.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1323040261' post='2344548']

Everyone has their own Cross to bear, and it shouldn't ever get in the way of their Vocation. And we shouldn't say that it could.

[/quote]

But certain crosses [i]can [/i]get in the way of the practice of a vocation. I was giving a practical reason why it'd be very difficult for someone with deep-seated homosexual tendencies to become a priest, because the mere formation process would be a strong temptation to sin. The Church has certain rules for the good of everyone. These rules are a way of preventing people who aren't ready for it from pursuing it. People with same sex attraction have just as much dignity and deserve just as much of our love and respect as anyone else. But that doesn't change the fact that we have to recognize the differences in people, and acknowledge that those differences can mean different circumstances for people. I couldn't become a priest even if I wanted to, because I'm female. That is something I can't change. For some men, however, it is possible to discipline oneself enough for the priesthood if he experiences some same sex attractions. There are different rules for how someone can become a priest, whether the person is female, male with same sex attraction, or a heterosexual male.

Furthermore, I think it's important to note that Vocations aren't ultimately about what others want or what [i]we [/i]want, but what God is calling us to. Yes, God uses our desires and the direction of others to help guide us to that vocation. But we can also trust in the guidance of the Church, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, to help us discern our vocation.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323029239' post='2344467']
I don't subscribe to the concept of morals. I have an opinion, but that is my opinion, it is built on my upbringing, culture, environment, education, discussion with others and thoughtful contemplation.
I don't expect my opinions to be an objective morality base upon which everyone must obey.

I recognise the law as the authority but in a democratic society the law gives me the opportunity to influence and challenge.
I feel the law ought to intervene with regards to achieving a functional society, hence we shouldn't go around killing each other or seeking vigilante justice.
On matters that don't impact significantly on society, I feel the government should not intervene. I am also strongly against discrimination based on gender, race, culture, sexual orientation, skin colour, ethnicity, physical state (e.g, health or disorders), religious belief...
Although I believe people in society should be allowed to affiliate and/or teach religious belief, I am strongly against religious teaching, or organisations imposing discrimination.

In particular I don't see gay marriage or euthanasia as moral or immoral, I see these as a personal choice of the people who which to take part in these events.
[/quote]

Okay, so you don't believe in an objective morality - am I correct on this? If I am, I don't understand how you can say that we shouldn't go around killing people vigilante style. Do you believe this holds true for all people (that no one should do it)? What I mean is, are there any actions that are always wrong, no matter the intention or circumstance? Or even if we control for intention or circumstance, are there actions that are always wrong? Like, killing may not always be wrong. But would you say that killing a person with the intention of taking an innocent life is always wrong?

Also, what motivates you to be strongly against certain things, like discrimination? I mean, does this also count as an opinion? If so, is there anything that makes your opinion more valid than someone who believes it'd be great to give white, American, male, Protestant Christian, abled person all the jobs just because this employer doesn't like anyone who doesn't fit that bill?

[mortify]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1322936502' post='2344087']
Christianities opposition to homosexuality will be their downfall.
Society has moved on with acceptance, compassion and love for these people. Society does not feel that anyone has the right to suggest that gay people should be celibate.
[/quote]

On the contrary, accepting things like "homosexual unions" will only lead to the West's downfall. A society that runs contrary to nature and reason can not survive.

[mortify]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1322947942' post='2344156']
I am for pornography, but against child pornography.
[/quote]

Obviously you have no idea of the great harm that is done to those in porn, as well as those who watch it. Many secular (including feminists) are against pornography for this reason.

[mortify]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323029239' post='2344467']
I don't subscribe to the concept of morals. I have an opinion, but that is my opinion, it is built on my upbringing, culture, environment, education, discussion with others and thoughtful contemplation.
I don't expect my opinions to be an objective morality base upon which everyone must obey.
[/quote]

This type of "thinking" leads to the dissolution of society.

[Kia ora]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323016970' post='2344370']The issue is that same-sex attraction is more than simple temptation. It's a very serious disordered inclination that goes beyond normal concupiscence. As a spiritual and emotional disorder it has serious ramifications in terms of how one relates on a spiritual and emotional level with the people around him, and it is absolutely crucial that a priest has every advantage in that area.
[/quote]

I didn't know about that. Still, what is the role for homosexuals in the Catholic church? I'm not gay, butif I was gay and Catholic, I'd be terrified. First, you are told that there is something terribly wrong with you. Then you are told you can't do what others take for granted, get married and have children. You can't even have sex. That sounds like a profoundly neutered life for people who never asked for this. Priests enter the vocation voluntarily.

What about love? We've been talking about sex, but can gay people love each other?

Edited December 5, 2011 by Kia ora

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1323056280' post='2344698']

I didn't know about that. Still, what is the role for homosexuals in the Catholic church? I'm not gay, butif I was gay and Catholic, I'd be terrified. First, you are told that there is something terribly wrong with you. Then you are told you can't do what others take for granted, get married and have children. You can't even have sex. That sounds like a profoundly neutered life for people who never asked for this. Priests enter the vocation voluntarily.

What about love? We've been talking about sex, but can gay people love each other?
[/quote]
What sort of love are you talking about? People suffering from same sex attraction, like all other people, are called to have Christian love, caritas, charity, for everyone else. Romantic love though, between two people of the same sex, is wrong. And in fact it's not truly romantic love either, not like what a husband feels for his wife and vice versa. Consciously entertaining those disordered desires would constitute sin. At that point you'd be moving from the disordered desires, which are not in and of themselves sinful, to something that one does have control over.

Keep in mind what someone said above; a vocation isn't what you want, it's what God wants for you. If a man has homosexual attraction that is so intense and so deep seated that he cannot ever move past it, then he'd not be able to validly marry, and he would not be able to become a priest.
Yes absolutely it's tragic. All sin is tragedy. He would suffer enormously. However as Catholics we know that suffering can purify us and make us spiritually stronger. It would be crassly materialistic to say that since a man can't get married or be ordained that his life is somehow worth less, or is less meaningful, less successful, than a man who gets married, or who becomes a priest.
The more we suffer for God the more opportunities we have to grow in holiness.

[Kia ora]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323056802' post='2344711']
What sort of love are you talking about? People suffering from same sex attraction, like all other people, are called to have Christian love, caritas, charity, for everyone else. Romantic love though, between two people of the same sex, is wrong. And in fact it's not truly romantic love either, not like what a husband feels for his wife and vice versa. Consciously entertaining those disordered desires would constitute sin. At that point you'd be moving from the disordered desires, which are not in and of themselves sinful, to something that one does have control over.[/quote] This isn't to dispute Catholic teaching, because I don't really know much about it, but I have gay friends who are in long term relationships. I see tenderness and kindness. What I don't see are the effects of sin. I can be told that they're imitating love, or papering over lust with the appearance of love, but I honestly can't tell the difference.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1323058515' post='2344727']
This isn't to dispute Catholic teaching, because I don't really know much about it, but I have gay friends who are in long term relationships. I see tenderness and kindness. What I don't see are the effects of sin. I can be told that they're imitating love, or papering over lust with the appearance of love, but I honestly can't tell the difference.
[/quote]
Vice can easily disguise itself as virtue. That's what makes sexual sins so dangerous- they don't often look like sins. I don't doubt that they have the best of intentions and commitment for each other, but it is a relationship based on that which is intrinsically disordered. You can't build something good and true on a rotten foundation.

[Ice_nine]

Kia ora I have a highly nuanced answer towards your question that I don't have the energy to get into right now, but I will say this.argued that the idea of romantic love didn't even exist until the middle ages.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323056802' post='2344711']
What sort of love are you talking about? People suffering from same sex attraction, like all other people, are called to have Christian love, caritas, charity, for everyone else. Romantic love though, between two people of the same sex, is wrong. And in fact it's not truly romantic love either, not like what a husband feels for his wife and vice versa. Consciously entertaining those disordered desires would constitute sin. At that point you'd be moving from the disordered desires, which are not in and of themselves sinful, to something that one does have control over.
[/quote]

Disagree. In order for something to be universally wrong I think you have to examine the issue cross-culturally and across history. Marriage has not always been associated with romantic love and there are many cultures that exist today which do not have this concept of romantic love. Hell, it could be Therefore I don't think it's that simple.

Yes our culture has romance associated with candlelit dinners and all sorts of other activities that can be a segue into erotic love, but that does not entail that romantic love and eros cannot be separated from each other.

The church even uses the term "homogenital acts" which for me is so painfully specific it takes away a lot of ambiguity.