Catholic And Gay

[BigJon16]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1322972546' post='2344278']
It is fine for you to choose to be celibate. That is your choice, for whatever reason.

But to try and impose this onto other adults, simply because you believe your god doesn't like it, this is going too far in my opinion. Leave it to god to judge, it is between them and god (if there is one).
[/quote]


But we don't "impose"... We don't put guns to peoples heads and force them to choose celibacy. We choose it because we know that there is much more to life than sex and "earthly relationships", regardless of what secular culture says. WE CHOOSE to be "that guy", who doesn't let himself be a slave to the "Dictatorship of Relativism".

As Christians, the reason why we don't do things isn't just because "God says not to". If you want to truly understand Christianity, get that misconception out of your head. God says "not to do something", because HE CREATED US. He knows what is good for us, and what is bad for us. He knows what will hurt us, and He knows what wont. BECAUSE HE CREATED EVERYTHING. That's why we listen to Him.

If you actually read the post, you would have read this, and it explains it very well.
[quote]

Is it hard to be gay and Catholic? Yes, because like everybody, I sometimes want things that are not good for me. The Church doesn’t let me have those things, not because she’s mean, but because she’s a good mother. If my son or daughter wanted to eat sand I’d tell them: that’s not what eating is for; it won’t nourish you; it will hurt you. Maybe my daughter has some kind of condition that makes her like sand better than food, but I still wouldn’t let her eat it. Actually, if she was young or stubborn enough, I might not be able to reason with her — I might just have to make a rule against eating sand. Even if she thought I was mean.

[/quote]

Gay marriage isn't a matter of civil rights. Legally, if two guys want to be in a relationship, then they can. The Government doesn't have to legalize it in order for this to happen.

BUT marriage isn't something defined by Governmental law. IT is something that is DEFINED BY GOD. BECAUSE HE CREATED IT. If anything, legalizing "gay marriage" is more of an infringement on my civil rights (as a Catholic Christian) than not-legalizing it is an infringement on people with same sex attraction.



There, I've ranted. Felt good too.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1322967046' post='2344242']
Because it is against the law for children to have sex and children are easy prey for Adult pedophiles who would have their way with them against their will. Child pornography displays children in a sexual mannor, which is contrary to the law.
[/quote]

Do you believe in legal positivism? Is something right or wrong because The Law says so?

[Kia ora]

If life long celibacy is what gay people must do, wouldn't they be a good fit for priesthood?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983092' post='2344305']
If life long celibacy is what gay people must do, wouldn't they be a good fit for priesthood?
[/quote]
Not if their homosexual tendencies are very deeply rooted.

[Kia ora]

Uh...why should that matter? I thought homosexuality was okay, acting on that homosexuality wasn't.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983293' post='2344308']
Uh...why should that matter? I thought homosexuality was okay, acting on that homosexuality wasn't.
[/quote]
Not exactly. The orientation itself is intrinsically disordered. It is not sinful if acted upon, but it remains disordered.

[Kia ora]

All humans are disordered from the perspective of original sin.

I don't understand what that has to do with homosexuals in the priesthood.

[Nihil Obstat]

"From the time of the Second Vatican Council until today, various Documents of the Magisterium, and especially the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], have confirmed the teaching of the Church on homosexuality. The [i]Catechism [/i]distinguishes between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies.

Regarding [i]acts, [/i]it teaches that Sacred Scripture presents them as grave sins. The Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, under no circumstance can they be approved.

Deep-seated homosexual [i]tendencies, [/i]which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God's will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter[size="3"][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html#_ftn8"][8][/url][/size].

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[size="3"][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html#_ftn9"][9][/url][/size], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture"[size="3"][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html#_ftn10"][10][/url][/size].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a [b]situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women[/b]. One must in no way overlook the [b]negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies[/b].

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. "

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html[/url]



The issue is that same-sex attraction is more than simple temptation. It's a very serious disordered inclination that goes beyond normal concupiscence. As a spiritual and emotional disorder it has serious ramifications in terms of how one relates on a spiritual and emotional level with the people around him, and it is absolutely crucial that a priest has every advantage in that area.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322993707' post='2344330']
All humans are disordered from the perspective of original sin.

I don't understand what that has to do with homosexuals in the priesthood.
[/quote]

I believe the Pope issued a document recently (it may have been the same ione Nihil posted) stating that homosexuality is imcompatible with the priesthood.

On a practical note, if you place a homosexual male in an environment with a lot of other males, you increase his temptations.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Norseman82

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983293' post='2344308']
Uh...why should that matter? I thought homosexuality was okay, acting on that homosexuality wasn't.
[/quote]

Part of the problem is that if a man with homosexual attractions wasn't sufficiently mature in his spirituality and his sexuality, seminary would just post one giant temptation. I mean, think about it - these men are joining a live-in school where they receive an intense spiritual and theological education, and they're bound to (and encouraged to) form very strong brotherly friendships with their fellow seminarians. If I were a man with same sex attraction, don't know if I could handle not forming any "special relationships" with a brother seminarian. It'd just be much easier if sexual attraction wasn't an issue, you know? A man would have to be incredibly mature and disciplined in his own sexuality to be able to handle making chaste friendships in that setting. That's not to say that a man dealing with same sex attractions couldn't ever become a priest - jamesmerton, the blogger I linked to above, is one of those young men discerning the priesthood (with a spiritual director, of course). It's a lot to deal with, though, on top of the rigorous training priesthood requires.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I always interpreted the Vatican's use of "deep rooted" to mean that one is actively dealing with homosexual attractions in one's daily life, particularly because the phrase is linked to supporting "gay culture" in the passage. Maybe not every day, per se, but that one is dealing with same sex attraction as an active temptation in one's life. A man would have to have "gotten over it." Not everyone is capable of that kind of discipline, because some sexual attractions are stronger than others. I'd imagine very few people would be capable of overcoming it enough to enter the priesthood.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Basilisa Marie

[stevil]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1322975397' post='2344284']

Do you believe in legal positivism? Is something right or wrong because The Law says so?
[/quote]
There is no other authority.
The law in my country says that it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a person under 16 years of age. This age limit is somewhat arbitrary. If you got a group of people to write down the age limit for sex, I'm pretty sure you will get a variety of ages written down.

But I do hope for law change on some things. I hope gay people get the legal right for full blown secular marrage, I hope euthanasia become leegal...

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323022323' post='2344391']
There is no other authority.
The law in my country says that it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a person under 16 years of age. This age limit is somewhat arbitrary. If you got a group of people to write down the age limit for sex, I'm pretty sure you will get a variety of ages written down.

But I do hope for law change on some things. I hope gay people get the legal right for full blown secular marrage, I hope euthanasia become leegal...
[/quote]

I don't understand. But if there's no other authority than the law, how can something be right if it's not legal? Wouldn't there have to be some outside guideline that determines what is right or not, if there are things that are illegal but moral (assuming you'd argue that gay marriage and euthanasia are moral)?

[stevil]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323026527' post='2344435']

I don't understand. But if there's no other authority than the law, how can something be right if it's not legal? Wouldn't there have to be some outside guideline that determines what is right or not, if there are things that are illegal but moral (assuming you'd argue that gay marriage and euthanasia are moral)?
[/quote]
I don't subscribe to the concept of morals. I have an opinion, but that is my opinion, it is built on my upbringing, culture, environment, education, discussion with others and thoughtful contemplation.
I don't expect my opinions to be an objective morality base upon which everyone must obey.

I recognise the law as the authority but in a democratic society the law gives me the opportunity to influence and challenge.
I feel the law ought to intervene with regards to achieving a functional society, hence we shouldn't go around killing each other or seeking vigilante justice.
On matters that don't impact significantly on society, I feel the government should not intervene. I am also strongly against discrimination based on gender, race, culture, sexual orientation, skin colour, ethnicity, physical state (e.g, health or disorders), religious belief...
Although I believe people in society should be allowed to affiliate and/or teach religious belief, I am strongly against religious teaching, or organisations imposing discrimination.

In particular I don't see gay marriage or euthanasia as moral or immoral, I see these as a personal choice of the people who which to take part in these events.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983092' post='2344305']
If life long celibacy is what gay people must do, wouldn't they be a good fit for priesthood?
[/quote]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983293' post='2344308']
Uh...why should that matter? I thought homosexuality was okay, acting on that homosexuality wasn't.
[/quote]

A very good and Holy priest once said

"great priests would make great husbands and great husbands would make great priests"

First, the call to the priesthood isn't about what else you can't do. It's about a call within your soul and a desire to give your all to the Lord and His flock. Same goes for the call to religious life. You don't choose the priesthood because you have no other choice just like you don't choose religious life because you can't find a man. In order to truly appreciate them both one needs to truly understand and [i]appreciate [/i]the beauty of marriage (i.e. between a man and a woman)

[LaPetiteSoeur]

I have two gay friends. The only thing I can do is pray for them.