Socrates Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1323283785' post='2346618'] haha God bless y'all for trying but, you're only beating a dead horse, bringing the horse back to life, killing it, and then beating it up again [/quote] It's like something out of a Bruce Campbell movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 [quote name='brianthephysicist' timestamp='1323376748' post='2347501'] Most conversations on morality that I run across these days are begun with 2 assumptions: secular and morally relativistic. If you can get rid of the secular assumption, moral relativism tends to fall easily. But moral relativism can still be refuted from a completely secular worldview. I recommend reading some works by Peter Kreeft; here's a decent one to get you started if you're interested [url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/05_relativism/relativism_transcription.htm"]http://www.peterkree...anscription.htm[/url] [/quote] Thanks, I'll give that a read. Since that conclusion I have is largely irrelevant to my own beliefs, I'm not particularly attached to it, so I welcome reading on both sides of the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323375176' post='2347494'] It is arrogant of you to suggest I cannot speak of my beliefs (not based on fact) whereas your entire worldview is based on belief. [/quote] lol I didn't suggest that silly. You can speak on an internet forum all you like and say whatever you want. Just don't get mad if someone calls it ridiculous And I didn't see you retract your statement about the generalization, but let's be fair, it's something you've done more than once. I still think you sound like you just dropped acid almost every time you post. But hey rock on man. Don't let me stop ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323330815' post='2347222'] There is no objective right or objective wrong about it. In my subjective opinion It is unnecessary for a government to impose a rule to restrict such a thing. [/quote] In my opinion, it is completely unnecessary for a government to allow such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1323393069' post='2347616'] In my opinion, it is completely unnecessary for a government to allow such a thing. [/quote] And in my opinion it is unecessary and inappropriate for a government to restrict such a thing. So we have opposing views, one of oppression and one of freedom of choice, doesn't it seem strange that if there is objective morality that we have differing opinions on the role of government implementing rules and what actions society should allow members to partake in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 One question I have is if Christians believe their god is all powerful and chose to give people free will, then why would this god want its followers to impose laws on others to restrict their available choice? If god is all powerful then god him/herself could stop people doing things that he/her doesn't want them to do. If god wants people to make decisions then isn't restricting those choices against god's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323396235' post='2347655'] One question I have is if Christians believe their god is all powerful and chose to give people free will, then why would this god want its followers to impose laws on others to restrict their available choice? If god is all powerful then god him/herself could stop people doing things that he/her doesn't want them to do. If god wants people to make decisions then isn't restricting those choices against god's will. [/quote] [quote]One question I have is if Christians believe their god is all powerful and chose to give people free will, then why would this god want its followers to impose laws on others to restrict their available choice? [/quote] Free will doesn't mean everything is right. In fact it seems to imply, at least subtly, that some things are wrong. It would kind of be meaningless to say we have free will unless that actually entailed the ability to discriminate between right actions and wrong ones. [quote]If god is all powerful then god him/herself could stop people doing things that he/her doesn't want them to do. [/quote] Sure, if you want to take away free will. [quote]If god wants people to make decisions then isn't restricting those choices against god's will. [/quote] No. God gives free will so that we have the ability freely to make the righteous choice in any given scenario. Again, as above, 'free will' loses any meaning if there is no essential difference between choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1323391595' post='2347604'] I still think you sound like you just dropped acid almost every time you post. But hey rock on man. Don't let me stop ya [/quote] I do find it interesting, that our way of thinking, of rationalising the world is so different that it is so hard for us to understand each other. I often see on Atheist forums, people hassle theists for their contradictions, lack of reasoning and logic, and I also see the same on theist forms with Theists hassling atheists (not just me) of contradictions, lack of reasoning and logic. I know our word definitions are different as well as our epistemology and hence it is a difficult task to truly convey our points to each other. But the reverse can also be said, it is a difficult task to try and listen to people from another worldview without jumping to conclusions based on your own presuppositions, preconceptions, word definitions and epistemology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323399025' post='2347698'] No. God gives free will so that we have the ability freely to make the righteous choice in any given scenario. Again, as above, 'free will' loses any meaning if there is no essential difference between choices. [/quote] I still don't understand though. It god wants people to freely make choices, then wouldn't laws restrict those choices and thus be contrary to god's want? How can god judge us if we haven't been given enough rope to hang ourselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323412215' post='2347837'] I still don't understand though. It god wants people to freely make choices, then wouldn't laws restrict those choices and thus be contrary to god's want? How can god judge us if we haven't been given enough rope to hang ourselves? [/quote] Maybe some laws are rather inadvisable because of what you're getting at, but certainly not all. We also have an obligation to protect the innocent, so one might argue that secular laws are intended to do that. Certainly if I see an innocent person being attacked I would be performing a work of mercy to protect them. The unjust attacker has already chosen that evil, so if I physically stop him I am not impeding his ability to make that choice. Only the ability to carry it out. He is still guilty of that evil, morally speaking, even if I successfully stop him. At the same time it is an intrinsically just act to protect the innocent, so it's a good thing for the person I help, and it's also good for my own soul hopefully because I am practicing virtue, making morally good choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323387491' post='2347565'] It's like something out of a Bruce Campbell movie. [/quote] Or "Day of the Dove"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323412936' post='2347845'] Maybe some laws are rather inadvisable because of what you're getting at, but certainly not all. We also have an obligation to protect the innocent, so one might argue that secular laws are intended to do that. Certainly if I see an innocent person being attacked I would be performing a work of mercy to protect them. The unjust attacker has already chosen that evil, so if I physically stop him I am not impeding his ability to make that choice. Only the ability to carry it out. He is still guilty of that evil, morally speaking, even if I successfully stop him. At the same time it is an intrinsically just act to protect the innocent, so it's a good thing for the person I help, and it's also good for my own soul hopefully because I am practicing virtue, making morally good choices. [/quote] OK, it makes sense to help a person under attack by someone else. But how does it make sense to create a law to stop gay people having sex or even getting married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323414286' post='2347855'] OK, it makes sense to help a person under attack by someone else. But how does it make sense to create a law to stop gay people having sex or even getting married? [/quote] My opinions on secular law are a bit scattered at the moment and I'm in the middle of a bit of a paradigm shift, you could say, so I'm going to leave this one for somebody else to answer if you don't mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323414664' post='2347858'] My opinions on secular law are a bit scattered at the moment and I'm in the middle of a bit of a paradigm shift, you could say, so I'm going to leave this one for somebody else to answer if you don't mind. [/quote] That's fine, thanks for the dialogue so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 It's been my pleasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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