Determining That Someone Isn't Called?

[AccountDeleted]

Speaking as an older vocation I don't really have a problem anymore with communities who have cut-off ages that eliminate me as a potential candidate. I used to be concerned about this but over time I have come to realise that God pays no attention to these sorts of things, and if He is calling someone to religious life, He will provide the opportunity for that to be fulfilled.

When I get discouraged, I think about Abraham. God had told him that he was going to father a nation, but Abraham just kept getting older and older and yet Sarah wasn’t conceiving. We all look to Abraham as a model of trust and faith in God for leaving his home and for agreeing to sacrifice his son, but there was a time when he, too, got discouraged and so he listened when Sarah suggested an alternative plan to make God’s promise come true …so he had a son by Hagar, his wife’s servant. We have all read how that turned out!!

Eventually when God did appear to Abraham and tell him that Sarah would conceive and give birth to a son by the following year, Sarah laughed because let’s face it, she knew that at her age, it sounded ridiculous! Nothing is impossible for God and He always fulfills His promises – but in His own way and in His own time.

I have been like Abraham during that time in his life. I have heard God’s promise but have tried to fulfill it my own way on occasion, as if I had to be the one to make it happen. So I used to get annoyed at communities that denied me because of my age and wondered how they could be so discriminatory! I was trying to ‘force’ things like Abraham and Sarah did by using Hagar to try to make God’s promise come true. I entered my last community, not because I felt it was where I belonged – I knew it was wrong from the beginning – but because, like Abraham, I thought God was taking too long and I better take things into my own hands.
Now I am completely at peace with my vocation and discernment. I have my part to play in the process, but God is the one who will make it happen, if it truly is His will, as I have reason to believe. So if a community tells me that I am beyond their age limit, I accept this as God’s way of telling me that He doesn’t want me in that community.

With this clarity, I also see that communities have to do what they think is best for their particular community, and if that involves age limits, or health expectations, or other criteria, then I trust that they are responding to what they feel is the guidance of the Holy Spirit for the benefit of all of the members of their community, in order to better serve God.

Rejection from a community is a very positive thing when viewed in this way because it is God guiding and directing one’s path and feels very personal and loving. Our human nature may not appreciate the feelings involved, but our faith is tested and strengthened and we grow in so many ways that enhance our personal connection with Him whom we love. I have to add that I am finally beginning to understand some of the things that St Francis and St John of the Cross said about rejoicing in adversities and trials – not because they feel good, but because they are such a gift from Someone who cares more about us than we can possibly imagine. I just pray and hope that this newfound knowledge hangs around for awhile …it’s really nice to feel as trusting as a child instead of trying to always be the one in control!

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323460709' post='2348210']

[i]I can definitely see what you mean and I think you definitely have picked up on a paradox that does exist. One thing I would like to add to your reflection is that maturity very rarely has something to do with age. It does have to do with experience and how we learn from it. I get the feeling from your post that you would be surprised to know that I am only 24. I definitely don't know everything or even a majority of things but I am willing to have new experiences and do the hard work of integrating them with my identity as a religious woman - I'm sure there are older women who would be able to do the same thing. [/i][/quote]

I would not have guessed you are 24, but I didn't think you were in the Senior Citizen category yet. Isn't there a picture of you somewhere on the phorum in the new habit your community has adopted? Of course, maturity is very often not related to age, but having "been there, done that" does definitely help. I remember reading, around the time of V2, that one of the reasons so many priests left the priesthood in certain traditionally European Catholic countries was that they had been sent to seminary so young that they had no idea what an issue their sexuality would become as they reached adulthood, and in fact hadn't fully been aware of whether they had a vocation or not.




[quote][i] That is one of the best descriptions of formation I have ever heard... I'm definitely going to pray on that one as I reflect on my own formation - and continuing formation of a lifetime[/i].[/quote]

Good Heavens, I had no idea I was turning into a Venerable Sage! Thanks to everyone who has made kind comments about me. The desire for a closer relationship with God, however one conceives God to be, isn't particular to one religion; I think, in fact, that it is a common human desire, to some degree, in just about everyone. That's why I enjoy reading the posts here. However, for the majority of people, it isn't an [b][i]overwhelming [/i][/b]desire, so it is easy to get sidetracked into other paths. In Judaism, there is what is called "tikkun olam" or "repairing the world", and to quote one of the rabbinic sages who was approximately contemporary with Jesus, "while you are not required to complete the task, you are not absolved from the requirement of contributing toward its completion" -- which is to say one must live one's life in the best, most ethical way one can. I think that goes for everyone, be he Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, animist, etc. I do hope no one thinks it odd that I, as a practicing Jew, contribute here.


[i][quote] There are other considerations with the whole age discussion that are often not looked at. For instance, if a woman is looking to enter a community that has an apostolate of education or nursing or social work - they are going to need to have a great deal of education in order to participate fully in the charism and mission of that community. That education costs a lot of money and requires a lot of stamina. A lot of apostolic communities would, rightfully, be wary of paying for an education that would only be in practice for a short amount of time in someone who is much older. I know in my community if you are studying... you are usually working full time as well... and being full time in community... and full time in prayer... It's just another perspective on the whole age thing.[/i]
[i][/quote][/i]

I agree-- up to a point. It would seem strange to me that someone who had been, for example, a bank clerk until the age of 50, would want to enter an order whose apostolate was nursing [although, of course, that community might be in dire need of someone to do the accounts!] and therefore be a burden on a community for some years with probably a short career afterwards. Certainly one would hope that the Superior would not assign an obviously gifted teacher in a teaching order to work in something entirely different. But, amazing as it sounds, I think the older individual is often more flexible than the very young. Young people tend to be very doctrinaire, "it's my way or no way". I am definitely more flexible on certain issues than I was 20 years ago because they just don't seem so burningly important now -- or, to put it another way, my priorities have changed over the years, and [of course I could be mistaken] they are now both more realistic and go more to the heart of the issue without all the accompanying baggage.

In the book, "The Nun's Story", Sister Luke, as a novice, at one point has to go to the seamstress nun to get her habit altered, and she thinks to herself that Sister Euxodia, sitting quietly with her needle for decades, is the perfect example of extreme self-sacrifice. But Sister Luke herself wants ardently to be a missionary, and projects her own desires onto someone else. Sister Eudoxia might have felt all along that she was in exactly the place God wants her and doesn't think that she has sacrificed anything. My guess is that an older woman wanting to enter a convent would not expect the community to put themselves out so much as to foot the bill for a lengthy education. When my son was inducted into the Israeli army for his regular three years' of service, he was assigned to be a driver and he wanted to be a combat soldier [which has higher prestige]. His father and I tried to convince him that, for every combat soldier, without roughly a dozen support staff ranging from quartermasters, to catering, to transport , would never be equipped or at the right place at the right time, without a full belly. Of course, being 18, my son didn't want to hear that -- the last time he visited [he is now 31 and lives in New York] he finally admitted that I had been right. I see the varied needs of every community in the same way, and I presume that many sisters have wound up doing something entirely unexpected but which gave them a lot of satisfaction.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Antigonos

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1323508469' post='2348493']


I agree-- up to a point. It would seem strange to me that someone who had been, for example, a bank clerk until the age of 50, would want to enter an order whose apostolate was nursing [although, of course, that community might be in dire need of someone to do the accounts!] and therefore be a burden on a community for some years with probably a short career afterwards. Certainly one would hope that the Superior would not assign an obviously gifted teacher in a teaching order to work in something entirely different. But, amazing as it sounds, I think the older individual is often more flexible than the very young. Young people tend to be very doctrinaire, "it's my way or no way". I am definitely more flexible on certain issues than I was 20 years ago because they just don't seem so burningly important now -- or, to put it another way, my priorities have changed over the years, and [of course I could be mistaken] they are now both more realistic and go more to the heart of the issue without all the accompanying baggage.

In the book, "The Nun's Story", Sister Luke, as a novice, at one point has to go to the seamstress nun to get her habit altered, and she thinks to herself that Sister Euxodia, sitting quietly with her needle for decades, is the perfect example of extreme self-sacrifice. But Sister Luke herself wants ardently to be a missionary, and projects her own desires onto someone else. Sister Eudoxia might have felt all along that she was in exactly the place God wants her and doesn't think that she has sacrificed anything. My guess is that an older woman wanting to enter a convent would not expect the community to put themselves out so much as to foot the bill for a lengthy education. When my son was inducted into the Israeli army for his regular three years' of service, he was assigned to be a driver and he wanted to be a combat soldier [which has higher prestige]. His father and I tried to convince him that, for every combat soldier, without roughly a dozen support staff ranging from quartermasters, to catering, to transport , would never be equipped or at the right place at the right time, without a full belly. Of course, being 18, my son didn't want to hear that -- the last time he visited [he is now 31 and lives in New York] he finally admitted that I had been right. I see the varied needs of every community in the same way, and I presume that many sisters have wound up doing something entirely unexpected but which gave them a lot of satisfaction.
[/quote]


You have made several very good points here that I felt like commenting on.

I particularly like your statement "I see the varied needs of every community in the same way, and I presume that many sisters have wound up doing something entirely unexpected but which gave them a lot of satisfaction."

I would hope that this is true for most nuns but I know that I have also met some very bitter and resentful nuns who seem to have spent most of their religious life feeling unhappy, and this comes out in their treatment of others. I pray that this is just a remnant of the pre-Vat 2 period when women who didn't really have vocations felt compelled to become nuns for the wrong reasons and then spent their lives regretting it. Hopefully this doesn't happen these days, and in addition to careful discernment by the communities, women today are a lot more aware of choices and options before entering a community. And most communities today also seem to be more sensitive to their needs of their members - at least the active ones. Some cloistered communities might lag a little behind in this area but even there, a lot of them do seem to be working on it.



Onto the topic of an older woman entering a community and not expecting them to spend time and money on her to re-train her for another career. My friend, a mature woman (although not quite as 'elderly' as I am) has recently been clothed by her community and although she has a perfectly good job within their apostolate that she enjoys doing and is good, is now being asked to undertake nursing studies. This prospect not only frightens her at her age (the return to study) but she also feels that nursing is not something that she would be good at. She doesn't want to leave the community but she doesn't want to do the nursing either and feels very upset. Naturally I have counselled her to speak very honestly with her superior about her feelings, but of course, she is worried that if she does that, she will have to leave and she isn't ready for that yet. She feels caught between a rock and a hard place because she didn't realise that they would expect her to do this (and perhaps it is something they should have discussed before she entered!). So she is someone who doesn't want the re-training that they want her to do, even though she is already contributing to their apostolate quite well. I also tried to suggest to her that perhaps her fears are unwarranted and that once she starts, she might actually find that it is all okay. The thing is that once she chose to become a religious, she had to know that she would be asked to do things that she didn't necessariy want to do - the hard part right now is to come to terms with that reality and contribute towards making the experience a positive one.

Then there is the case of someone like myself who already has the training and years of experience behind them (I was both a registered psychiatric nurse and then a teacher/university professor). I wouldn't need any training for either a nursing or teaching apostolate (although I would need to get registered again for both fields since I have let them both lapse) but active communities definitely don’t want me. The thing is that I don't feel called to an active apostolate anyway. I think that not only would I feel very out of place at a community that has all young postulants and novices, I actually feel God is calling me to a cloistered life. I may enter a cloistered community however and find myself interacting with others in ways that I never expected or perhaps be asked to do things that use those skills that I have already acquired but didn't feel called to use in an active apostolate.

And on another topic, I like your point about Sr Luke projecting her desires onto the seamstress sister and not realising that someone might be perfectly happy doing such quiet work (I particularly love the idea of being a Sacristan because I was an assistant one at one community and loved it). Perhaps the fact that Sr Luke cared so much about this is one of the reasons that she eventually left though - she really did want the nursing more than being a nun. Perhaps she saw the convent as a good way to get to the Congo and since she loved God anyway, she didn’t realize that the battle of wills would be so difficult.

Finally, I too have a child in the military. When she enlisted, she wanted to be a medic, but they had an excess of these at the time and she trained to be a cook instead. She loved it and ended up winning awards and feeling very happy in her work and even re-upped because she loved her life there so much. She has since married and had a baby and is intending to leave the military next year, but she discovered that just because you don't get your first choice, doesn't mean you can't find satisfaction in something else. She tells me that when she leaves, she would like to understake nursing studies on the GI Bill. The thing is, that even though she wasn't in a religious community, she knew when she enlisted that she might have to do things she didn't want to do. And she didn't have the option of leaving just because they made her become a cook - she was committed for at least 3 years at the time. How much more is asked of someone who makes a lifetime commitment?

In the convent, one is there for God, not for their own pleasure, and even though we do tend to follow our affinities - it is only human nature to do so, once we give our lives to God, we have to be prepared for Him to use us in ways we can't imagine because only He knows what is best for our souls and also for the good of the whole community trying to serve Him. Most of us in Vocation Station have read In This House of Brede, where Dame Phillipa only wanted peace and quiet and to stay at Brede Abbey but had to eventually leave for Japan to start a new foundation because she was the only one who could. She did what she didn't want to do because she had already given her life to God. One would hope that she eventually came to find satisfaction and peace in the path that God had chosen for her.

Anyone wanting to enter religious life has to place God's will before their own and this isn't always going to be the easy path. I know I didn't have this understanding in the first community I entered, although I thought I did at the time. The reality of surrendering one's will to God isn't the same as the romantic dream of doing it. And let's face it, sometimes His will can be very confronting (like being asked to leave a community). That's why I love the posts from Sr Marie and other religious who are actually living the reality day to day and challenge us with the truth, the joys and the sacrifices. And this thread has been fantastic!

[MithLuin]

[url=http://www.franciscanbrothersminor.com/FBM/Discernment_Part_X_-_Age_Discrimination.html]Age Discrimination[/url]

Here is a short reflection on the age at which one is called to religious life (or the age at which one enters). It is written by a superior of a new community, and not surprisingly, his community says they are open to vocations of all ages - or, well, age 17 and up (no limit). I think that communities which do impose age limits may have a reason (born of experience) for doing so, and I cannot say that I know better than they do. But it is refreshing to see someone come out and say:

"May we all realize that age is not the problem. Stubbornness of heart, a selfish spirit, and an unwillingness to be formed are the things that break a vocation. These occur at any age, and are more common in the young than in the old. Whatever age we may be, we must open our hearts to be generous, merciful, selfless, formable, and - most necessary - humble. Every soul at any age is capable of this interior disposition."

As someone mentioned above - it's maturity that matters, and that maturity is going to come at different times for different people. As long as we try our best to follow God and submit our will to His...it will all come out all right in the end.

[brandelynmarie]

[quote name='Discipulus' timestamp='1323472378' post='2348268']

I think this often is a problem, but there are pros and cons both to being younger or being older when entering religious life. The young have energy and many years to offer; older people have experience and more greatly developed skills. Both can be great gifts to a community, and often a mixture of ages is what brings about the best results.




This embodies what is to me a very important point about religious life, that sometimes is missed both by people who have only ever known the consecrated existence and also by younger people coming to it fresh out of the education system or after only a few years of employment: that although yes, religious life is different from other states, it also shares in common with them many elements such as rites of passage, learning through mistakes, personal development and undergoing the necessary education, and [b]external signs and symbols that are often seen as an end in and of themselves rather than as indicators of deeper truths and realities[/b]. Being a religious is not so different to other forms of life that we should over-indulge our sense of apartness from other people - nor is it something we're called to because we're inherently different to others. Often we're called because we're available, and because we're willing.



Oh yes! But I think that our walking with God is always about letting go of fear, most especially the fears of being hurt or of being abandoned. We journey in darkness towards a destination that we cannot see, but are held by the hand and are slowly led towards that destination - if we can overcome the temptation to pull away from the one who guides us, either to run towards or to run away from the end point of our journey. The willingness to stay with our guide and walk at the pace they choose for us should be the obvious choice, but often it isn't easy to trust them; and that choice has to be made every day of our life, because the final destination won't be reached this side of the grave.
[/quote]

Yes, yes! All of the above...the bolded part is yet another new thought for me to ponder & meditate on. Thank you.

[brandelynmarie]

Props Antigonos!

[MithLuin]

Oh, and Antigonos....no, I don't think it's the least bit unusual that someone who is not Catholic is interested in the types of things we discuss here in Vocation Station. As you say, seeking union with God and to follow His will is one of those things that should be common to all people.

[Sarah147]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323365626' post='2347389']

I can't completely describe the nature of the relationships between sisters in religious life in one post but I have to say that you are not going to find the kind of relationship you described above in religious life. There are a few reasons why. First, in most communities being "general" is a virtue. Generality means in very simple terms that whether you can't stand a sister, whether she is mean to you, whether she is nice to you, whether you like her... you give yourself in exactly the same way to her as to the others. You may be closer to some sisters than others but you are expected to relate to all sisters in community as your sisters in Christ... not necessarily as blood sisters would relate. You will find that there WILL be sisters who are not kind to you. When that happens you cannot find someone else to meet your emotional needs and make you feel better... that is when the sacrifice of love comes into play. Like St. Therese we must attempt to love them even more.

Secondly, community is not about what you receive... it is about what you give. Jesus' love brought Him to a horrific death - so should ours. The love sisters have for one another in community is characterized more by interior sacrifice of will, wants, and needs than by that kind of intimate relationship. The support we receive from one another is not because of verbal encouragement and kindness but because the nature of our life leads us to the sacrifice which teaches us to love as Christ. Community doesn't support chastity because it takes the place of that type of relationship but because it safeguards an empty place within us that can only be filled by God - not our sisters.

Third, one of the biggest disappointments women have early in religious life is that community is not what they expected it to be. Some expected relationships like mothers, blood sisters, family, friends... it is never any of those relationships. You will live with people you wouldn't have even considered associating with when you were in the world... now you must love them. The focus of religious life is not for the filling of an emptiness within us but for the preservation of that emptiness for God alone and then the pouring out of God's love on those we meet. If any sister DID fulfill that empty place within another... it would be time to rethink that relationship because it detracts from ones vocation not enhances it.

I'm not sure if this all makes sense and I'm trying to think of a good example to illustrate what I mean... I write this because I don't want women to enter communities with expectations that are unrealistic or with motives that won't be fulfilled in religious life. I'm not trying to be dramatic but religious life is austere and it is a call to death so that we can try to live the relationship with God that we will have in eternal life. There are sisters who will be kind and who will help you and who will truly love you... but they must also offer that in the same way to the other sisters around them. In religious life, there are saints and saint makers... women who are incredibly holy and the rest of us who are trying and possibly failing - we succeed by clinging to Christ... not to any human relationship. They can help us but they are not the ones that save us.
[/quote]


This whole thread is so rich and deep! God bless all of you!

I can see what you are saying and others have said. I've seen mostly in the FSI order when I was with them for 3 months, I saw how Sisterly and loving community can be. I can see it's different from the friendships outside community, and that is something I'm hoping I can grow to learn in my heart and adapt.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1323558402' post='2348732']
This whole thread is so rich and deep! God bless all of you!

I can see what you are saying and others have said. I've seen mostly in the FSI order when I was with them for 3 months, I saw how Sisterly and loving community can be. I can see it's different from the friendships outside community, and that is something I'm hoping I can grow to learn in my heart and adapt.
[/quote]

Dear Joyful,

I was afraid that I had offended you and I am sorry if I was overly harsh in my explanation. I think that what you just wrote here was very telling of your humility, goodness, and honesty. Your willingness to possibly change your expectations and look at a different environment is really wonderful. Your sentiments above are a great way to approach religious life. God bless you and know I am praying for you!

I just wanted to add an aside to the older vocations discussion - I think the age limit is naturally different in different communities and I only wanted to offer another perspective that sometimes people don't think about. Sometimes the age limit is inappropriate. Sometimes it is. I don't think it necessarily needs to be a cut and dry answer for each community to the question of "How old?" Everyone has great points on this!

And Antigonos - I'm glad I'm not in the senior citizen category, haha!

[Antigonos]

[quote name='brandelynmarie' timestamp='1323549473' post='2348670']
Props Antigonos!
[/quote]

Blush!

[savvy]

Thank you all for sharing your insights. I am learning so much.

I have also noticed that there is a generation missing. The covents I have been to have either nuns who are old or very young.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='savvy' timestamp='1323618009' post='2349095']
Thank you all for sharing your insights. I am learning so much.

I have also noticed that there is a generation missing. The covents I have been to have either nuns who are old or very young.
[/quote]

I am reminded of what is sometimes called the "immigrant experience". Children of immigrants often reject the traditional values by which their ancestors lived for centuries, choosing to be "modern" and assimilating as much as possible into the new environment of the adopted country. [i]Their [/i]children, however, feel rootless and begin researching their origins and resuming some, if not all, of the tradition.

There isn't any doubt in my mind that V2 caused massive upheaval in the Church. Quite a bit of it was good, but change for change's sake -- and let's face it, both lay and religious life underwent really radical changes: the Mass in the vernacular, adoption of secular clothing and the end of enclosure for certain communities of nuns, "liberation theology", priests with guitars, long hair, and acting like hippies, etc-- caused a rush to the opposite extreme of what had been [all too often] a stagnant and hidebound Church. Both priests and nuns abandoned their vocations [which probably had been rather shaky to start with, but tradition held them together] in very large numbers. What we are seeing now is the "grandchildren" who are looking for a more authentic religious experience based on the old traditions while accepting that the world is not the same it was several generations ago. The revival seems to be slow but steady, and I think this augurs well, since the modern methods of discernment are likely to lead to a generation of genuinely called individuals who will have a major influence for good.

Judaism went through this, too, but a little longer ago. The Reform Movement has been "rediscovering" a lot of the tradition it dumped during the past few decades, and the movement which is experiencing the largest amount of growth now is the modern Orthodox.

[savvy]

[quote]I am reminded of what is sometimes called the "immigrant experience". Children of immigrants often reject the traditional values by which their ancestors lived for centuries, choosing to be "modern" and assimilating as much as possible into the new environment of the adopted country. [i]Their [/i]children, however, feel rootless and begin researching their origins and resuming some, if not all, of the tradition.

There isn't any doubt in my mind that V2 caused massive upheaval in the Church. Quite a bit of it was good, but change for change's sake -- and let's face it, both lay and religious life underwent really radical changes: the Mass in the vernacular, adoption of secular clothing and the end of enclosure for certain communities of nuns, "liberation theology", priests with guitars, long hair, and acting like hippies, etc-- caused a rush to the opposite extreme of what had been [all too often] a stagnant and hidebound Church. Both priests and nuns abandoned their vocations [which probably had been rather shaky to start with, but tradition held them together] in very large numbers. What we are seeing now is the "grandchildren" who are looking for a more authentic religious experience based on the old traditions while accepting that the world is not the same it was several generations ago. The revival seems to be slow but steady, and I think this augurs well, since the modern methods of discernment are likely to lead to a generation of genuinely called individuals who will have a major influence for good.

Judaism went through this, too, but a little longer ago. The Reform Movement has been "rediscovering" a lot of the tradition it dumped during the past few decades, and the movement which is experiencing the largest amount of growth now is the modern Orthodox. [/quote]

This is a good analysis Antigonos. Personally, I am comfortable in both traditional and modern settings, as long they are peaceful. I do tend to lean towards external symbolism, because a picture speaks a thousand words. I think with my generation it's more about wanting something MORE. It's not like we don't have other options.

Edited December 12, 2011 by savvy