Determining That Someone Isn't Called?

[das8949]

I know that it has been posted before but for those of you discerning it is important to be careful what you write in this Phorum. There are many religous as members as well as those who just peruse the site scanning the topics and posts affording them the opportunity to get to know you in advance in much the same way you learn more about the communities. When you go on a "Come and See" weekend, retreat, or live-in experience keep in mind that this process goes two ways. If I were in the position to discern I would approach it much like a job interview. It seems that one can learn much about an individual - is this person an introvert or extrovert; is she/he a team player; does his or her personification of their vocation and prayer life seem genuine; is this person's personality a good fit with our community. I also think it is important to highlight your strengths as well as your weaknesses in a honest way but also as "professionally" as possible. You would be surprised how much you can learn about someone from work, meals and recreation. If they can determine that you are not a fit for them early on, it really is in your best interest if they are honest rather than causing you more pain as the process progresses.

[das8949]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/user/10715-joyfullife/"][color=#272727]JoyfulLife[/color][/url]<p class="author_info">

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Posted Today, 05:30 PM
But how do they determine it?

Joyful,

Hopefully some Sisters will post to this thread but I think that religious communities much like employers know what personality characteristcs mesh with the rest of the organization; they know if they prefer assertive or passive members or a combination; they also take these matters to God in prayer and have a Vocation Committee in many cases who meet after an event has ended and discuss the potential of the candidates. It is not a cut and dry process but more like a tried and true one.

In the 60's when I entered, we did just that, we came and met the community, had one on ones with the Reverend Mother, VD's and PD's. Times were different and there were not discussions of charisms- if you wanted to teach you entered a teaching order, to nurse a nursing order. It is a much more complex process now as much has changed in the dynamics of our society and in the human relations field.

An example that I happen to se was that a candidate described her discernment publically (written on website) in terms of wearing the habit and being called Sister rather than in a more spiritually mature manner and in the end was asked to wait a year. Whether or not that was a part of the process of determination obviously is not known but my point is that one should express themselves in ways that is going to showcase their attributes.

I hope this helps.

Edited November 30, 2011 by DarleneSteinemann

[OnlySunshine]

If there is anything that I could relate you about the discernment process, it's to be careful what you write in your correspondence with any Vocation Director. Of course, be honest, but don't assume that you found where you are called simply from what you believe. They have to affirm the call. I will say some prayers for you.

Edited November 30, 2011 by MaterMisericordiae

[beatitude]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1322688646' post='2342848']
But how do they determine it?
[/quote]

The Holy Spirit blesses them with the insight they need. That is really all that can be said.

It sounds as though you're trying to prepare for this in the same way you might study for a school exam, to increase your chances of 'passing'. It doesn't work like that. It's also not like job-hunting, where you have to do the best you can to sell yourself to the employer. Ultimately, you either have a vocation to a particular community or you haven't; and you need to trust that God will give both you and these experienced sisters the wisdom you need to see it.

As far as I know, psychological evaluations aren't usually done unless a candidate has already been accepted by the community. (Some communities may differ, but this is certainly the case with all the ones I know.) You seem to be rushing things quite a lot here - you haven't even met the RSMs yet, but you're already talking about the month when you might enter, and trying to arrange a psych assessment without having had a proper chat with one of the sisters. This does come across as anxious behaviour. I recognise it, because I myself have suffered from a fairly serious anxiety disorder, and this compulsive planning and rushing was something that I also used to do. In my case it was coupled with a fear of uncertainty, and from what you have written about the upcoming change in your work situation, I think you have the same difficulty.

You have written that you wouldn't be able to support yourself - but how do you know? You might very well be capable of finding a job and an independent apartment, with God's help. It could be that this is something you have to do. I did. It was terrifying, especially as I have other disabilities in addition to anxiety, and I was frightened that it would mean nobody would want to hire me. But I managed, and I'm glad I did. It brought me to a fuller understanding of my potential and all the gifts God has entrusted to me. It was quite an adventure, and one I needed to have. Without it I wouldn't know myself as well as I do now. Self-awareness is an important part of discernment, and one thing I am continually aware of is that anxiety is part of my temperament. I no longer have a medically diagnosable disorder, but I am more prone to anxiety than the average person, and no medication or therapy is ever going to take that away. I have had to learn to catch myself gently when my thoughts start racing ahead, and to offer any anxious feelings to God - not so that He can make them vanish, but so that He can prevent them from taking over my day. Now I no longer want this 'thorn in my flesh' to be removed, and I understand why St Paul was thankful for his. It's taugt me to trust.

Something that many people have commented on about me is the deep faith and trust they see in me. I get highly personal prayer requests from people to whom I've only spoken once or twice. Just a couple of months ago I had one from a former classmate whom I haven't seen in six years. This humbles me, and makes me feel a little uncomfortable, because I don't feel trusting, not inside. Inside I'm so muddled and jumbled up. With the help of a close friend, I was eventually able to see that this [i]is[/i] trust - it's not about feeling serene and calm all the time, but quietly plodding on even if you really don't have the faintest idea what's going to happen next and you're scared.

I hope that your medication can help you to manage your condition better, but I also think that you need to learn how to [i]use[/i] your difficulties. Don't just think about how to erase them, but about what they can teach you and how they can help you to grow in love for God and other people. There are people who go into religious life with quite severe mental health problems, and their perseverence is not determined by how well they squash those problems and whether they achieve 'normality', but whether they can make a gift of their whole person to God through this way of life. You can only do that if you're able to give yourself fully in this present moment. The same is true of everybody, mentally ill or not.

This is was the test of Faith's perseverence. You are right, Notting Hill Carmel's ability to be flexibile with her in order to meet her employer's needs is encouraging - but what about the two years that preceded her application to this community? To say that she suffered would be an understatement. She has shared quite a lot about her pain on PM, which is why I feel comfortable saying this in her absence, but I don't think any of us can fully appreciate how hard it was for her - and it was painful for me to witness at a distance, so goodness knows how much more painful it was for her to endure. When she was asked to leave her old monastery she had no idea what to do, where to go long-term - it was all unknown. But God has done great things for her and through her in those two years. She's probably changed one little boy's life forever. This was part of her vocation and her journey too. She hasn't just stepped into a monastery at a convenient time; she had a long hard (and necessary) slog to get there. If it were to be required of you, could you do a similar thing?

Vocation is only partly about where you end up. It's also about how you get there.

Edited November 30, 2011 by beatitude

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1322695680' post='2342910']

The Holy Spirit blesses them with the insight they need. That is really all that can be said.

It sounds as though you're trying to prepare for this in the same way you might study for a school exam, to increase your chances of 'passing'. It doesn't work like that. It's also not like job-hunting, where you have to do the best you can to sell yourself to the employer. Ultimately, you either have a vocation to a particular community or you haven't; and you need to trust that God will give both you and these experienced sisters the wisdom you need to see it.

As far as I know, psychological evaluations aren't usually done unless a candidate has already been accepted by the community. (Some communities may differ, but this is certainly the case with all the ones I know.) You seem to be rushing things quite a lot here - you haven't even met the RSMs yet, but you're already talking about the month when you might enter, and trying to arrange a psych assessment without having had a proper chat with one of the sisters. This does come across as anxious behaviour. I recognise it, because I myself have suffered from a fairly serious anxiety disorder, and this compulsive planning and rushing was something that I also used to do. In my case it was coupled with a fear of uncertainty, and from what you have written about the upcoming change in your work situation, I think you have the same difficulty.

You have written that you wouldn't be able to support yourself - but how do you know? You might very well be capable of finding a job and an independent apartment, with God's help. It could be that this is something you have to do. I did. It was terrifying, especially as I have other disabilities in addition to anxiety, and I was frightened that it would mean nobody would want to hire me. But I managed, and I'm glad I did. It brought me to a fuller understanding of my potential and all the gifts God has entrusted to me. It was quite an adventure, and one I needed to have. Without it I wouldn't know myself as well as I do now. Self-awareness is an important part of discernment, and one thing I am continually aware of is that anxiety is part of my temperament. I no longer have a medically diagnosable disorder, but I am more prone to anxiety than the average person, and no medication or therapy is ever going to take that away. I have had to learn to catch myself gently when my thoughts start racing ahead, and to offer any anxious feelings to God - not so that He can make them vanish, but so that He can prevent them from taking over my day. Now I no longer want this 'thorn in my flesh' to be removed, and I understand why St Paul was thankful for his. It's taugt me to trust.

Something that many people have commented on about me is the deep faith and trust they see in me. I get highly personal prayer requests from people to whom I've only spoken once or twice. Just a couple of months ago I had one from a former classmate whom I haven't seen in six years. This humbles me, and makes me feel a little uncomfortable, because I don't feel trusting, not inside. Inside I'm so muddled and jumbled up. With the help of a close friend, I was eventually able to see that this [i]is[/i] trust - it's not about feeling serene and calm all the time, but quietly plodding on even if you really don't have the faintest idea what's going to happen next and you're scared.

I hope that your medication can help you to manage your condition better, but I also think that you need to learn how to [i]use[/i] your difficulties. Don't just think about how to erase them, but about what they can teach you and how they can help you to grow in love for God and other people. There are people who go into religious life with quite severe mental health problems, and their perseverence is not determined by how well they squash those problems and whether they achieve 'normality', but whether they can make a gift of their whole person to God through this way of life. You can only do that if you're able to give yourself fully in this present moment.

This is was the test of Faith's perseverence. You are right, Notting Hill Carmel's ability to be flexibile with her in order to meet her employer's needs is encouraging - but what about the two years that preceded Faith's application to this community? To say that she suffered would be an understatement. She has shared quite a lot about her pain on PM, which is why I feel comfortable saying this in her absence, but I don't think any of us can fully appreciate how hard it was for her. I remember her struggling to adjust to that demanding live-in job with no personal space, being physically out of reach of all her friends, and crying every night. When she was asked to leave her old monastery she had no idea what to do, where to go long-term - it was all unknown. But God has done great things for her and through her in those two years. She's probably changed one little boy's life forever. This was part of her vocation and her journey too. She hasn't just stepped into a monastery at a convenient time; she had a long hard (and necessary) slog to get there. If it were to be required of you, could you do a similar thing?

Vocation is only partly about where you end up. It's also about how you get there.
[/quote]

What a beautiful and insightful post, beatitude. It is very much what I needed to hear right now.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1322688561' post='2342847']
It stinks. It does. At first blush, it seems unfair - why not let a person have a go - try it out, really see if it's a fit? But the reality is that communities are in the buisness of discernment; they know a lot about it. And if they *know* a person isn't called, it's a great mercy to come out and say it and spare the person a bigger disaster down the road.
[/quote]

I had a superior who was afraid to hurt people's feelings. It's probably one of the worst qualities a superior can have... you're right when you say that it's merciful for a community to be a honest with a person from the get-go.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1322656478' post='2342605']
Thank you so much for what you shared! Especially about faithcecilia!! Wow!


I'm looking at visiting RSM in May 2012, if they and my relatives are in agreement. I asked Sister if I could get psych exam the same visit to better determine if I'm called.

I'm nervous because Sister still hasn't returned my email. Sister had written earlier within a few days or less before. I hope she doesn't have a problem with me as I told her everything about me and what's going on.

Can anyone tell me what the RSM ask in the psych exam? I understand it's to determine vocation.


Can anyone tell me what Sisters look for in determining if someone seems to have a calling? What qualities or what not?

What does the VD ask to get a feel for the person? Do they tend to ask why you want to be a Sister?
[/quote]

I have to honestly say that this topic makes me a little uncomfortable as a sister. As I read your questions it makes me wonder whether you are trying to discern God's will or whether you are trying to make your will work for you. I don't mean that to sound harsh and I apologize if it is but in charity I think you need to know how this [i]might[/i] sound to someone on the [i]inside - [/i]not so that you can fix it and keep on with your plans but so that you can recognize something in yourself and explore it so that you can come closer to God and to grow in knowledge of yourself... only then should you think about religious life.

As a sister, after reading this thread, it makes me think - what are you going to do with whatever information someone provides about what the sisters are looking for, what questions will they ask, what the psych tests look for? Are you going to try to present yourself in a way that will be attractive to them regardless of your actual personality, likes/dislikes, desires, and thoughts? Are you going to rehearse your answers? If the answers in all honesty, whether you were consciously thinking this way or [i]fell into[/i] this kind of thinking, are yes to those questions it would raise a red flag. Just the questions themselves make me feel a little uneasy.

Your post also makes me think, why aren't you asking the sisters these questions? They are the only ones who can give you the answers to these questions but I think you might realize too that your questions seem more like a checklist of what you have to do to be accepted when in reality - in religious life - they can say no for any reason. There is no syllabus, list of expectations, right answers... its just living and feeling and discerning God's will.

If I'm thinking in the right direction with the above (which I could be entirely wrong and in that case ignore me!) I would really encourage you to stop discerning until you feel that you will be able to live authentically with any answer or no answer to the above questions and many more. Religious life is not only difficult - it is complicated, stressful, and intense living and it is constantly changing. The answer you get today may be different tomorrow.

I will keep you in prayer and I hope that you realize that these words are meant in charity. Again, I could have misread all your intentions and thoughts, and if so, I apologize. The internet is not the best forum for deep conversations and much is lost in this form of communication.

Please know of my prayers for you.

[das8949]

I think what was so beautiful about Faith's story with NH is that she did not contact them regarding her job status or living arrangement, but it was purely chance that her Pioress read this Phorum and happened to see a post Faith made about the situation and even stating that she wanted to leave her entry date in God and the Prioress's hands. She did not want to influence the situation this time around, but have it evolve as it would. That is humility and surrender and in its true form.

My point about equating interviewing with communities as one would an employer is that both Faith in her openness onthe forum reached the eyes of her Prioress. In another post, the person advised against revealing too much in writing. In many cases, there are only so many spaces available each year and in those situations the Vocation Team makes their decisions on what they know about each candidate.

[Sarah147]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1322696505' post='2342918']

I have to honestly say that this topic makes me a little uncomfortable as a sister. As I read your questions it makes me wonder whether you are trying to discern God's will or whether you are trying to make your will work for you. I don't mean that to sound harsh and I apologize if it is but in charity I think you need to know how this [i]might[/i] sound to someone on the [i]inside - [/i]not so that you can fix it and keep on with your plans but so that you can recognize something in yourself and explore it so that you can come closer to God and to grow in knowledge of yourself... only then should you think about religious life.

As a sister, after reading this thread, it makes me think - what are you going to do with whatever information someone provides about what the sisters are looking for, what questions will they ask, what the psych tests look for? Are you going to try to present yourself in a way that will be attractive to them regardless of your actual personality, likes/dislikes, desires, and thoughts? Are you going to rehearse your answers? If the answers in all honesty, whether you were consciously thinking this way or [i]fell into[/i] this kind of thinking, are yes to those questions it would raise a red flag. Just the questions themselves make me feel a little uneasy.

Your post also makes me think, why aren't you asking the sisters these questions? They are the only ones who can give you the answers to these questions but I think you might realize too that your questions seem more like a checklist of what you have to do to be accepted when in reality - in religious life - they can say no for any reason. There is no syllabus, list of expectations, right answers... its just living and feeling and discerning God's will.

If I'm thinking in the right direction with the above (which I could be entirely wrong and in that case ignore me!) I would really encourage you to stop discerning until you feel that you will be able to live authentically with any answer or no answer to the above questions and many more. Religious life is not only difficult - it is complicated, stressful, and intense living and it is constantly changing. The answer you get today may be different tomorrow.

I will keep you in prayer and I hope that you realize that these words are meant in charity. Again, I could have misread all your intentions and thoughts, and if so, I apologize. The internet is not the best forum for deep conversations and much is lost in this form of communication.

Please know of my prayers for you.
[/quote]

I would say you were a little misguided.

I have ADHD and Dyslexia and is causes me to think poorly on my feet. So, I would like to have time beforehand to pray and delve into how I feel about different questions.

I already said so much in my email to the vd that perhaps Sister doesn't like me or see me as a possibility. I put a lot out there. Maybe the part about needing to live somewhere sounds pushy.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1322702166' post='2342948']

I would say you were a little misguided.

I have ADHD and Dyslexia and is causes me to think poorly on my feet. So, I would like to have time beforehand to pray and delve into how I feel about different questions.

I already said so much in my email to the vd that perhaps Sister doesn't like me or see me as a possibility. I put a lot out there. Maybe the part about needing to live somewhere sounds pushy.
[/quote]

Well I apologize if I was misguided or if I hurt your feelings. It was not my intention at all....

I hope you did still see that I was talking about perceptions and my response was just guided by my honest perception of what you said from the point of view of a religious - it was not meant as a judgment - just a window as to how someone else might respond to your statements.

I don't think what you said about needing to live somewhere sounded [i]pushy[/i] but it [i]could [/i] seem like you are looking for anywhere to find a home. (I don't mean that that is what you are doing... just how things can sometimes be perceived.)

I apologize anyway if I offended you.

Prayers!

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1322702166' post='2342948']

I would say you were a little misguided.

I have ADHD and Dyslexia and is causes me to think poorly on my feet. So, I would like to have time beforehand to pray and delve into how I feel about different questions.

I already said so much in my email to the vd that perhaps Sister doesn't like me or see me as a possibility. I put a lot out there. Maybe the part about needing to live somewhere sounds pushy.
[/quote]

JoyfulLife, I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I mean absolutely no respect or anything. All I want is to see you happy doing God's will.

If I may, it seems as though you are still jumping ahead. You haven't met the Vocation Director. You don't know what she is going to say about your situation. It may turn out positive, it may turn out negative. The most important thing that you really need to do is relax and let God get in the driver's seat. Regardless of how much you know or don't know about a community, there is still the most important part of discernment -- the community affirming the call. If you don't have that, then you do not have a vocation to their community.

If you truly feel the desire and/or need to visit the community, then by all means, go! But I think it's best that you go with no expectations of whether or not you will find your call. You should go regardless if you are called there or not. Each and every retreat is a learning experience. You have to take them for what they are worth. Believe me, the Vocation Directors can read if you are trying to put on a front (which I'm not saying you are) or you know too much from outside sources. Go with an open heart to God. Do not expect anything. This is how I approached the retreat. I had no idea if they were going to accept me or not. I didn't ask until the very end of the retreat about the medication issue.

Please do not think me insensitive. I have prayed for you and I am still praying for you to find the path God has carved out for you. I am not a spiritual director nor am I a vocation director. I am only telling you what I see displayed here on the forum. I understand what Sister Marie is trying to say because I've been there myself. I wanted too much to be accepted by a community rather than find out if God was calling me there and THEN worry about the rest.

Have you asked your spiritual director about these questions? Does he/she believe that you would be a good fit with this community?

[vee]

"Pick up your cross and follow me, I am the Way the Truth and the Life" One's focus needs to be Christ alone, doing His will, what He wants no matter how much that goes against what WE want. Always look straight at the cross, not religious life, not marriage those are only paths to holiness but holiness is the goal.

[Lil'Monster]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1322706447' post='2342988']
"Pick up your cross and follow me, I am the Way the Truth and the Life" One's focus needs to be Christ alone, doing His will, what He wants no matter how much that goes against what WE want. Always look straight at the cross, not religious life, not marriage those are only paths to holiness but holiness is the goal.
[/quote]


sometimes i fail that.....ok most of the time.....

[vee]

We all fail at that but we hve to remember that things are only paths to holiness and not set them as idols

[Lil'Monster]

someone has to knock some sense in me once in a while!