My Fault, My Fault, My Most Grieveous Fault

[TheresaThoma]

[quote name='hermanita' timestamp='1322944203' post='2344137']
I love the new translation.
[/quote]
I'm with you there. It still throws me a bit but as others have pointed out the new translation is more precise.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1322943182' post='2344125']
I would have to agree with Socrates here, and to put his argument a bit further..... perhaps average Joe Catholic may ask these very questions..mainly, "what's the difference between X and Y?", and may come away more educated and hopefully more solid in his faith if he chooses to find the answers?

I see that as the genius behind the whole thing. Not just the more accurate 'words', but the possible curiosity it could bring up and educating it can do when answered....
[/quote]

I like that you think that way.

I know, too, that a lot of parishes are making efforts to explain why these changes are made in that regard---not just to be more accurate but what the actual words mean. I think it's actually a good step in towards better catechesis.

[sixpence]

i only messed up the last with you spirit today!! whoo hoo!

i think the whole thing is beautiful

[Archaeology cat]

I'm glad I get to say "incarnate" again. That's how that part of the Creed went in England before the new translation.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1322942367' post='2344118']
"Consubstantial" means "of the same substance, which in the Latin has a very precise theological meaning. It refutes the error of the Arian heretics who claimed that God the Father and Christ were of different substances. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07449a.htm"](Read this Catholic Encyclopedia article for details)[/url] "One in being" contains no such precise meaning. I mean, heck, I'm one in being with you too, brother. Am I wrong? Who knows, because who knows what "one in being" even really means.


As for "incarnate," that word also more fully describes the theological reality of Christ's becoming Man. "Incarnate" describes the Eternal Word of God taking flesh as a human being. I was born of my mother, as were you. Neither of us was incarnate. We were not eternal divine beings taking flesh as humans. Obviously, it is not incorrect to say that Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, but incarnate describes this unique event central to all Salvation History more fully.


It seems some people are really straining here to find fault with the new translation.
[/quote]
I'm not trying to find fault. Really. It's just that the English-speaking world speaks, well, English, not Latin. If "one in being" doesn't get it done in English it terms of conveying an important theological meaning, then say, "of the same substance." What I'm suggesting is that an important truth is going to be lost for many people because who knows what "consubstantial" means?

Edited December 5, 2011 by kenrockthefirst

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' timestamp='1323101850' post='2344899']
I'm not trying to find fault. Really. It's just that the English-speaking world speaks, well, English, not Latin. If "one in being" doesn't get it done in English it terms of conveying an important theological meaning, then say, "of the same substance." What I'm suggesting is that an important truth is going to be lost for many people because who knows what "consubstantial" means?
[/quote]
If the current crop of Catholics is too lazy to bother finding out what consubstantial means, then I might respectfully submit that they don't get a say in the translations of the missal.
As we said, consubstantial (and incarnate) have specific, precise theological meanings. We can't dumb down the Mass. That's just not an option. The Mass itself is, or at least is supposed to be, theologically precise, because there really is nothing more important for the Church to concern Herself with. The Mass is the means by which we worship God and by which God offers us His grace. That's not something you simply tinker with to make it easy for lazy Catholics.
Bible Study for Dummies? Sure, dumb that down as much as you want. Make it sixth grade reading level and only use modern terminology. Use chat slang if you want- I don't care. But don't tinker with the Mass. The attitude that we can just arbitrarily change the Mass to suit modern sensibilities or attitudes is exactly one of the problems with the current state of Catholics today, most of whom don't attend Mass, don't go to confession, don't follow the Church's moral teachings, and don't pass them on to their kids.
The law of prayer is the law of belief. If we dumb down our prayer, what are we doing to our belief? It will be impoverished. We've seen it happen- that's not simply a hypothesis. It did happen, and it is happening right now. The new translation takes a small but meaningful step towards correcting that.

[sixpence]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' timestamp='1323101850' post='2344899']
I'm not trying to find fault. Really. It's just that the English-speaking world speaks, well, English, not Latin. If "one in being" doesn't get it done in English it terms of conveying an important theological meaning, then say, "of the same substance." What I'm suggesting is that an important truth is going to be lost for many people because who knows what "consubstantial" means?
[/quote]

who knows what "Eucharist" or "magesterium" means either? let's not use these words! its not like we could just look them up in the dictionary!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1323103289' post='2344916']

who knows what "Eucharist" or "magesterium" means either? let's not use these words! its not like we could just look them up in the dictionary!
[/quote]
We need to make sure the Cafeteria Catholics and Cultural Catholics are well catechized enough that they can get mad at me when I yell "ANATHEMA SIT!"

[Starets]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323103416' post='2344918']
We need to make sure the Cafeteria Catholics and Cultural Catholics are well catechized enough that they can get mad at me when I yell "ANATHEMA SIT!"
[/quote]

You should get a dog and name him or her "anathema". Or maybe that can be the name of one of your children. That way you can say "anathema sit" regularly. If I had a dog, it would be named "anathema" so when I tell it to sit I could say "anathema sit".

seriously though good catechesis makes for stronger catholics so I am glad to hear that some parishes are trying to explain what the differences are and what they mean. Here, we used the sung solemn tone responses for several weeks before the new translation was introcuced, so the transition was virtually seamless

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Staretz' timestamp='1323104671' post='2344930']

You should get a dog and name him or her "anathema". Or maybe that can be the name of one of your children. That way you can say "anathema sit" regularly. If I had a dog, it would be named "anathema" so when I tell it to sit I could say "anathema sit".
[/quote]
That's actually a good idea. For the dog, not so much for the kids.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323103416' post='2344918']
We need to make sure the Cafeteria Catholics and Cultural Catholics are well catechized enough that they can get mad at me when I yell "ANATHEMA SIT!"
[/quote]

who is actually in charge of proclaiming such? is it bishops??? or only the Pope?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323106598' post='2344946']

who is actually in charge of proclaiming such? is it bishops??? or only the Pope?
[/quote]
If I understand the terms correctly, declaring anathema is considered obsolete at the moment. I'm looking at New Advent right now and it says here "Anathema remains a major [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url] which is to be [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454b.htm"]promulgated[/url] with great solemnity."
But I believe we don't at the moment have an exact distinction between minor and major excommunication. After VII I think that essentially disappeared. ETA: We do obviously have the distinction between a proclaimed excommunication and [i]latae sententiae[/i] excommunication.
Anyhow, the gist I'm getting from New Advent is that declaring anathema was the most solemn form of major excommunication, and therefore reserved to the Pope alone.
Here's the formula they reproduce:

The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter [i]Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi,[/i] distinguishing three sorts of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url]: minor[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url], formerly incurred by a [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm"]person[/url] holding communication with anyone under the ban of[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url]; major [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url], pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; andanathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454b.htm"]promulgated[/url] by the[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm"]Pope[/url]. In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01428c.htm"]amice[/url], stole, and a violet cope, wearing his[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10404a.htm"]mitre[/url], and assisted by twelve [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm"]priests[/url] clad in their [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14343d.htm"]surplices[/url] and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathemawhich ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm"]saints[/url], in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm"]Heaven[/url] and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all hisaccomplices and all his abettors of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07402a.htm"]Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord[/url], we separate him from the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14074a.htm"]society[/url] of all [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"]Christians[/url], we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url]in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm"]Heaven[/url] and on earth, we declare him [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunicated[/url] and anathematized and we judge him condemned to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]eternal fire[/url] with [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] and his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm"]angels[/url] and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url]; we deliver him to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] to mortify his body, that his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm"]soul[/url] may be saved on the day of judgment." Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm"]priests[/url] then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm"]priests[/url] and neighbouring [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm"]bishops[/url] of the name of the one who has been [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunicated[/url] and the cause of his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url], in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] and his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm"]angels[/url], he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url]. The [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454b.htm"]promulgation[/url] of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url] adds to it the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03538b.htm"]ceremony[/url] of the Maranatha.

Given that, I think we need to bring it back in style, what do you say??

Wherefore in the name of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm"]saints[/url], in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm"]Heaven[/url] and on earth, we deprive NANCY PELOSI herself and all her accomplices and all her abettors of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07402a.htm"]Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord[/url], we separate her from the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14074a.htm"]society[/url] of all [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"]Christians[/url], we exclude her from the bosom of our Holy Mother the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url] in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm"]Heaven[/url] and on earth, we declare her [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunicated[/url] and anathematized and we judge her condemned to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]eternal fire[/url] with [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] and his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm"]angels[/url] and all the reprobate, so long as she will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url]; we deliver her to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] to mortify her body, that her [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm"]soul[/url] may be saved on the day of judgment.

Who's with me???

Edited December 5, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323103273' post='2344915']
If the current crop of Catholics is too lazy to bother finding out what consubstantial means, then I might respectfully submit that they don't get a say in the translations of the missal.
As we said, consubstantial (and incarnate) have specific, precise theological meanings. We can't dumb down the Mass. That's just not an option. The Mass itself is, or at least is supposed to be, theologically precise, because there really is nothing more important for the Church to concern Herself with. The Mass is the means by which we worship God and by which God offers us His grace. That's not something you simply tinker with to make it easy for lazy Catholics.
Bible Study for Dummies? Sure, dumb that down as much as you want. Make it sixth grade reading level and only use modern terminology. Use chat slang if you want- I don't care. But don't tinker with the Mass. The attitude that we can just arbitrarily change the Mass to suit modern sensibilities or attitudes is exactly one of the problems with the current state of Catholics today, most of whom don't attend Mass, don't go to confession, don't follow the Church's moral teachings, and don't pass them on to their kids.
The law of prayer is the law of belief. If we dumb down our prayer, what are we doing to our belief? It will be impoverished. We've seen it happen- that's not simply a hypothesis. It did happen, and it is happening right now. The new translation takes a small but meaningful step towards correcting that.
[/quote]
How are we "dumbing down" the Mass if we use the English phrase, "of the same substance" as opposed to the Latin, "consubstantial?" Are we trying to be elitist? "You're not a real Catholic unless you know what 'consubstantial' means." I would have thought that making the Mass *more* accessible, not less, was a Good Thing.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' timestamp='1323108162' post='2344959']
How are we "dumbing down" the Mass if we use the English phrase, "of the same substance" as opposed to the Latin, "consubstantial?" Are we trying to be elitist? "You're not a real Catholic unless you know what 'consubstantial' means." I would have thought that making the Mass *more* accessible, not less, was a Good Thing.
[/quote]
You're looking at Mass as a man made tool for teaching. It is didactic only secondarily, and it is never considered man made. Primarily we must understand the Liturgy [i]as a Liturgy[/i], as true and faithful worship of God. Therefore accessibility is not the first priority. The first priority is keeping faithful to that which has been passed down to us through the Tradition of the Holy Church.
We cannot tinker with it because it is not ours with which to tinker. We didn't make it, and we don't get to change it on a whim. To dumb down the Mass by throwing out the 'theological' language in favour of simple modern language is exactly that; it's arbitrary tinkering and monstrous hubris.

I would suggest that a person's faith is tenuous at best if they make no effort to understand the eternal teachings of the Church.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323107088' post='2344950']
Wherefore in the name of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm"]saints[/url], in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm"]Heaven[/url] and on earth, we deprive NANCY PELOSI herself and all her accomplices and all her abettors of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07402a.htm"]Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord[/url], we separate her from the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14074a.htm"]society[/url] of all [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"]Christians[/url], we exclude her from the bosom of our Holy Mother the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url] in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm"]Heaven[/url] and on earth, we declare her [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunicated[/url] and anathematized and we judge her condemned to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]eternal fire[/url] with [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] and his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm"]angels[/url] and all the reprobate, so long as she will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url]; we deliver her to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] to mortify her body, that her [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm"]soul[/url] may be saved on the day of judgment.

Who's with me???
[/quote]

I really love that scene from "Becket" when he pronounces the excommunication of one of the King's soldiers... I know its a sad thing, excommunication, but there is so much justice in it, it makes it hard not to find satisfaction in it....