Harry Potter?

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1326486666' post='2368470']

What about the Sword in the Stone - another Disney classic? I just rewatched it recently with a very receptive attitude toward finding problems with it.
[/quote]

and this is the problem right here.

[MithLuin]

No, when we're talking about young kids...such an attitude is appropriate for a parent. The...wait, is there any danger here?

I think that it is perfectly appropriate for a parent to rule that Harry Potter is [i]not[/i] appropriate for young children simply because it has kids waving wands, saying spells, and doing magic in it. I would have trouble seeing this attitude maintained at, say, age 14. As the child gets older, you expect them to be able to process some things, and while still keeping them away from stuff that's evil, you wouldn't be quite as sweeping or categorical in what is off-bounds like you would be with a little kid.

I realize that some parents have this 'no, not yet' attitude towards Harry Potter, while others have a more firm, 'No, not ever, it's evil!' It's the latter attitude I have difficulty accepting, as it seems to miss some important things and to reduce everything in life into potential dangers. I mean, fearfully peeping out of a bunker doesn't seem a particularly healthy worldview.


Would one rule out Mary Poppins or Bedknobs and Broomsticks simply because they have humans being magical? That would be...sad.

Though of course the plot of Bedknobs and Broomsticks is that Miss Price is an apprentice witch. There's no getting around [i]that[/i]:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS3lu1Bwl_0[/media]

Yes, it is possible that your kids will watch this, and then try to chant 'Treguna Mexoides Trecorum Satis Dee'. But then nothing will happen. So....

[Basilisa Marie]

And, fides' Jack, that is where I think we fundamentally disagree - I've ultimately decided that the series isn't demonic, and you think it either is or you're not sure, so you're erring on the side that it is. And if I wasn't sure that the series wasn't, I'd probably agree with you. So yay for trying to understand each others' points of view instead of hurling insults?

On the "no, not yet" - aside from the "magic" issue, kids in the future won't have the experience of really growing up alongside Harry (that is, most of us aged up while the books were coming out, so there were more older teens reading the 7th book than 11 year olds), so I feel like it'd be more than appropriate to wait until you know your kids are able to handle the darker events of the later books to let them read the series. I mean, one of the main characters gets tortured for a bit "off camera," a teen attempts to murder Dumbledore, Voldemort's great attempt at immortality involves splitting his soul again and again via murdering people, etc. The series really morphs from children's book to young adult fiction over the course of the seven books.
Because once you let him start the series, it might be hard to get him to stop if he may not be ready for the whole story of Harry. Maybe that's just because I was an obnoxious child and voracious reader, so if my mom temporarily banned it from the house ("when you're older, sweetie...") I just had to see [i]why[/i] and ended up reading (or starting to read, depending) a book anyway.

[MithLuin]

As another example, in the original series Star Trek episode 'And the Children Shall Lead', the children conjure up an 'angel friend' by ritualistic chanting, and show that they have the ability to manipulate and control others -- the 'angel' gives them magic powers. The crew of the Enterprise does not hesitate to label this alien force evil...because of the outcome. When the corpses start piling up, it's hard to consider it merely a game.

Such a story is not appropriate for young children. I can't imagine any parent [i]wanting[/i] their kids to watch that. It's a show for adults, though the rating is mild enough that there's no reason teens can't watch it. The show is not particularly Christian, of course. Occasionally, the Bible is quoted, but the world view is very much a product of the 1960s. So, there is no religious reason why what the kids do is wrong. But certainly it can easily be seen as a metaphor for how witchcraft and the desire for magical power destroys a person and brings about destruction. In that sense...it is a rather moral tale about witchcraft.

Doesn't mean I offer no criticism. William Shatner's terrible acting, the weird, cheap costumes and a storyline with plotholes so that people just overcome the external forces when convenient but never think to confine the children..... There's plenty wrong with it, but I would have difficulty objecting to this episode on moral grounds.

[url=http://www.startrek.com/watch_episode/THuUBB0Kk4Knx7LeDLTewwKKL3dsbuLe]And the Children Shall Lead[/url]

[mysisterisalittlesister]

just a thought;

where are Harry's grandparents?

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='mysisterisalittlesister' timestamp='1326588360' post='2369225']
just a thought;

where are Harry's grandparents?
[/quote]

Rowling has said that his dad's parents had him later in life when they thought they'd never be able to have children, so they died sometime before Harry was born. His mom's family isn't talked about, probably because she's estranged from them or they've passed away as well.

[MithLuin]

Yes; Harry's parents and all grandparents are supposed to be dead. The grandparents died off 'naturally' - Rowling claims old age, though that does seem to be stretching it. Suffice it to say that they needed to be dead for the plot...and that JKR is [i]not[/i] very much into making numbers and family trees work out.

Harry is raised by his aunt, his mother's sister Petunia. While she provides a very unloving home to Harry, Dumbledore chooses her as a guardian [i]because[/i] she's Lily's sister, and some blood magic can add to Harry's protections. Also, Dumbledore thought it important that the child not grow up in a wizarding home, where he would be viewed as a celebrity. At one point, the idea of Harry moving in with his godfather is brought up, but it doesn't work out.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1326514241' post='2368746']
...I would have trouble seeing this attitude maintained at, say, age 14. ...

Would one rule out Mary Poppins or Bedknobs and Broomsticks simply because they have humans being magical? That would be...sad.

Though of course the plot of Bedknobs and Broomsticks is that Miss Price is an apprentice witch. There's no getting around [i]that[/i]:

Yes, it is possible that your kids will watch this, and then try to chant 'Treguna Mexoides Trecorum Satis Dee'. But then nothing will happen. So....
[/quote]

I understand what you're saying about the age. Only having experience as a male, I would have to say that 14 is far too young to give opportunity for something like that. If it is dangerous, then that's exactly the age I wouldn't want my kids to start getting into that kind of stuff. That's exactly the age that they get interested in that stuff (which is why HP became so popular to that age group).

I remember Bedknobs and Broomsticks from my childhood. That's exactly the kind of movie I would not want my kids seeing. That's specifically witchcraft... And it gives the idea that people can become witches themselves. I don't remember much of Mary Poppins, so I can't talk about that. What about not exposing them to movies like that makes it sad? Personally, I think it's a sign of maturity when someone can give up material things like movies. Even movies that they're very fond of. Of course, giving it up for oneself and not allowing your kids to see it are 2 very different things...

When people start trying to perform magic, it's basically the same as playing with a Ouiji board. They might think nothing happens, because what happens isn't detectable by the senses, but in fact they're exposing themselves to the spirituality of Satan. [b][i]That's[/i][/b] the problem.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Harry Potter promotes witchcraft and the occult. Proven fact. Also, Dumbledore is into unmentionable debaucheries. I will never read those books, nor will I watch the movies. Never have; never will. Evil.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1326528324' post='2368804']
And, fides' Jack, that is where I think we fundamentally disagree - I've ultimately decided that the series isn't demonic, and you think it either is or you're not sure, so you're erring on the side that it is. And if I wasn't sure that the series wasn't, I'd probably agree with you. So yay for trying to understand each others' points of view instead of hurling insults?

On the "no, not yet" - aside from the "magic" issue, kids in the future won't have the experience of really growing up alongside Harry (that is, most of us aged up while the books were coming out, so there were more older teens reading the 7th book than 11 year olds), so I feel like it'd be more than appropriate to wait until you know your kids are able to handle the darker events of the later books to let them read the series. I mean, one of the main characters gets tortured for a bit "off camera," a teen attempts to murder Dumbledore, Voldemort's great attempt at immortality involves splitting his soul again and again via murdering people, etc. The series really morphs from children's book to young adult fiction over the course of the seven books.
Because once you let him start the series, it might be hard to get him to stop if he may not be ready for the whole story of Harry. Maybe that's just because I was an obnoxious child and voracious reader, so if my mom temporarily banned it from the house ("when you're older, sweetie...") I just had to see [i]why[/i] and ended up reading (or starting to read, depending) a book anyway.
[/quote]

Yes, I think that's where the disagreement is. But I don't think the two perspectives are of equal importance - by this I mean that if you're right, then it really doesn't matter, and parents can hide it from their kids all they want (and that'd be their right), and whoever likes HP can like it and be just fine. But if you're wrong, then it's a very serious matter, even to the height of salvation itself. If people are led astray by HP, they could potentially be led away from God and down to the depths of hell.

For all our sakes, I hope and pray that you're right.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Check it. [url="http://www.studiobrien.com/writings_on_fantasy/michael-obrien-newhpbook.html"]Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture, by Michael O'Brien[/url]




[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][center]

[b][font=Times][b]"The corruption of Christian civilization’s symbols is a centuries-old phenomenon, yet until the modern age the mutations and inversions, along with the making of new diabolic symbologies, remained on the fringes of society in secret societies and small esoteric cults. Now the culture of the cults is visible everywhere, and with the Harry Potter series is entering (and captivating) the mainstream. Through it, the corruption of symbols has moved to a new level of influence, and it has done so on a scale that is unprecedented in the history of literature. . . . If we lose the language of true symbolism, we lose at a basic level of consciousness our way of knowing things as they are. Symbols are not items in some storage room or attic of the psyche that we can take up and discard at will, or rearrange without consequences. To tamper with them is to destabilize the very foundations of the house. While most Christians would never knowingly exchange symbols of evil for symbols of good, many have accepted a new realm of eclectic symbology that allows a mixture of good and evil symbols to influence their thoughts and feelings. But two contradictory symbol worlds cannot long remain in a state of peaceful co-existence within us. Either one or the other will come to dominate and will eventually demand the expulsion of the other." — Michael O’Brien[/b][/font][/b][/center][/font]


P.S. Full disclosure: I'm just trolling here.

[MithLuin]

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]What about not exposing them to movies like that makes it sad? [/quote][/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]This.[/font][/color]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0rRPU_cvGg[/media]

Suits of armor taking on Nazis is full of win


Now, if you don't want to expose your kids to magic/witchcraft in a fantasy story, you have that prerogative. Or...you could teach them about why you think it's dangerous. Or why the story is not real. Your call.

I mean, I think you'll find that magic is a part of most kids' stories, so it can become difficult to weed it out. I mean....The Little Mermaid? Ursula is the Sea Witch.

Practically all the adventures in Mary Poppins involve magic, such as the laughing=flying in this one:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTerKLeQBWk[/media]

Edited January 18, 2012 by MithLuin

[MithLuin]

Spoonful of Sugar = Mary Poppins teaches an important life lesson in cheerfully doing our tasks....and then uses magic and teaches the kids how to do it that way.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmHAWQqL9Lo[/media]


I realize that some of this is more subtle than others, and of course no parent is obligated to expose their kids to well...movie magic. I just think that weeding it out is going to be a gargantuan task, not a 'avoid the one bad apple' type of undertaking.

You Can Fly...with a little pixie dust and some happy thoughts

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb7F8cNF5lQ[/media]

Edited January 18, 2012 by MithLuin

[regina_coeli]

Isn't part of growing up learning to differentiate between fantasy and reality? Lots of childhood games start with . . Let's pretend, and we knew we weren't cowboys or Mary Poppins, and it didn't really matter that cowboys might be real and Mary Poppins was not. It's all exploration and moving beyond home, neighborhood, school. My concern is when the level of cruelty is too scary for the particular child, and that can be as simple as Peter Rabbit getting lost! And bullies That's a real problem!

[Nihil Obstat]

I DECLARE THIS THREAD RESURRECTED!

IT HAS BEEN FAR TOO LONG SINCE THE LAST HARRY POTTER DEBATE, AND MY OWN POSITION WAS EXPRESSED IN THIS THREAD BETTER THAN I HAVE DONE ANY TIME BEFORE OR SINCE!