Forgiveness

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1322498383' post='2341622']
Oh Lord I hope not.
[/quote]
Nice avatar but you've shrunk a little in DomSouls opinion as well!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1322501350' post='2341642']
don't use the LORD's name in vain...
[/quote]
How do you know I'm referring to God? I may well have been referring to some non divine person with the secular title of Lord.

[organwerke]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322361147' post='2340947']

Within the Catholic church do annulments consider forgiveness? They seem rather shallow and self-centered to me. "[b]I[/b] didn't really mean the vows when [b]I[/b] took them." "I didn't really want to have kids -- even though we had some.." "I felt pressured to marry her." "I didn't know all that marriage could involve before I got married..." What about the wife? What about the kids? What about the responsibilities? Aren't these the factors that make it adultery? Didn't he need to be forgiven? Or did annulling the marriage circumvent any need for forgiveness?

What if he got the marriage annulled but his wife and kids never forgave him? Within the viewpoint of the Catholic church does it matter? Is it believed that God forgave him for something that he had done to his wife and kids -- because the marriage wasn't "valid"? Or that there was no sin that needed to be forgiven?

I'm a little confused about when forgiveness is needed and when it isn't. [/quote]

Let start from this point.
I don't think annullment is necessarily related to forgiveness. It is about the validity/invalidity of the sacrament. But it is a matter of fact that very often there is a problem of forgiveness in marriages that are annulled. But still I think these are two separate matters. Also, the scenario can be different from the ones you describe. You always describe scenarios in which the person who harms the wife/husband is the same person who asks for the annullment. in the experience of persons I know it is usually just the opposite: it is the person who was seriously committed and who has been deceived and betrayed who asks for annullment: the person who deceives usually doesn't care at all about annullment.
Now, putting aside the problem of annullment, the problem of forgiveness remains.
Suppose that you are married and the person who is with you does not care at all about annullment.
This person simply does not want to live with you anymore (and probably never wanted to). This person simply wants to go with another man (or woman) and certainly does not need an annullment to do this. But this person wants you to pay her a lot of money because officially you are still her husband and so the law forces you to be tied to her even if she does not want to live with you and love you anymore. This person tries to do many thing -many legal things- to humiliate you and to harm you... You wants to persuade this person talking about the sacrament you asked and you received from God...this persons says that she does not believe it was really important and after all she does not care at all about the sacrament. This is a your problem, not hers.
This is not at all an exterme scenario: this is a very common situation. At least I know more than one situation like this. Do you think you would be able to forgive? What are your opinions on this? I wouldn't be able to express myself...really I can't think of a true complete answer to these questions...
I would think that if it is proved by the Church, the sacrament may result invalid. But still the problem of forgieveness remains and I haven't a solution for that...

Edited November 28, 2011 by organwerke

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1322437827' post='2341302']
Norse, in all the years you have been here, there have been times I have disagreed with you. But in all the years I've been here, I have never seen you be disrespectful of the Church, as a whole (not talking about bishops here), or be blatantly misogynistic and disrespectful towards women. You have a genuine love and respect for the Church and Her teachings, though you may have strong opinions about the problems of the Church and their cause. I see none of the genuine love and respect coming from SCG's quarter.
[/quote]

With the exception of when he has posted while under the influence, what I see in SCG is someone who wants to live a genuine Catholic life but has been negatively affected by the liberal Catholicism that was prevalent during his youth/young adult years. Maybe I'm just more patient because I am in his age/marital status/sports demographic and have myself seen and been frustrated by some of the same stuff as he has.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Norseman82

[Norseman82]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1322372824' post='2341107']
From what you have posted over a long time, your main focus is to find a woman (who must be a virgin who has never been married - even if that marriage has been annuled) and thinks you are marriage material because you have a house etc etc. Why you look here is beyond me because you aren't really a Catholic at all (yet) and this place is full of very traditional and faithful Catholics who are going to be more interested in your faithfulness to the Magesterium than your material abundance (hopefully).
[/quote]

Even Catholics faithful to the magisterium need to leverage every advantage they have in order to attract a wife.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1322517012' post='2341828']

Let start from this point.
I don't think annullment is necessarily related to forgiveness. It is about the validity/invalidity of the sacrament. But it is a matter of fact that very often there is a problem of forgiveness in marriages that are annulled. But still I think these are two separate matters. Also, the scenario can be different from the ones you describe. You always describe scenarios in which the person who harms the wife/husband is the same person who asks for the annullment. in the experience of persons I know it is usually just the opposite: it is the person who was seriously committed and who has been deceived and betrayed who asks for annullment: the person who deceives usually doesn't care at all about annullment.
[/quote]

But that doesn't affect the Priests decision about whether to grant an annulment -- does it?

I can imagine that you go into a marriage honestly meaning the vows you took -- including "..for better or for worse.." -- and the person who cheated also meant those vows. The cheating doesn't affect whether the marriage was valid or not to begin with -- does it? I can see those as reasons to ask for a divorce but not reasons to grant an annulment.

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1322517012' post='2341828']
Now, putting aside the problem of annullment, the problem of forgiveness remains.
Suppose that you are married and the person who is with you does not care at all about annullment.
This person simply does not want to live with you anymore (and probably never wanted to). This person simply wants to go with another man (or woman) and certainly does not need an annullment to do this. But this person wants you to pay her a lot of money because officially you are still her husband and so the law forces you to be tied to her even if she does not want to live with you and love you anymore. This person tries to do many thing -many legal things- to humiliate you and to harm you... You wants to persuade this person talking about the sacrament you asked and you received from God...this persons says that she does not believe it was really important and after all she does not care at all about the sacrament. This is a your problem, not hers.
This is not at all an exterme scenario: this is a very common situation. At least I know more than one situation like this. Do you think you would be able to forgive? What are your opinions on this? I wouldn't be able to express myself...really I can't think of a true complete answer to these questions...
I would think that if it is proved by the Church, the sacrament may result invalid. But still the problem of forgieveness remains and I haven't a solution for that...
[/quote]

I would argue that if you really believe the vows that you took, and you really believe in god -- than you don't remarry. Taking the same exact vows multiple times with different people is a little ridiculous. It becomes a "..this time I really really really mean it!" thing -- does't it? Or you could get a civil marriage. What's the point of taking the same vows different times with different people. Is it like a promise that is strengthened by an oath to God?? Does the oath to God really strengthen the commitment?? I'm not sure that it does.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1322372824' post='2341107']

As for you SCG - I think you really need to relax a little and stop trying to figure it all out. God is never going to fit into your little box, and neither is the Church. From what you have posted over a long time, your main focus is to find a woman (who must be a virgin who has never been married - even if that marriage has been annuled) and thinks you are marriage material because you have a house etc etc. Why you look here is beyond me because you aren't really a Catholic at all (yet) and this place is full of very traditional and faithful Catholics who are going to be more interested in your faithfulness to the Magesterium than your material abundance (hopefully).

[/quote]

This is an active forum where I can get a lot of different responses to Catholic questions. I really don't think that most of my questions and post are really going to impress most Catholic women -- and make them want to marry me. Which is why I shy from asking these sorts of questions in person.

Anyway I was thinking about this today and I thought that I would explain a little more of my thought process. I am a virgin so I definitely would prefer a virgin but there's more to it than that.

Let's take the example of a man that offers another man a job. He not only promises that man that he will pay him a certain amount of money for the job -- he makes that promise even more dependable by adding an oath "I swear to God I'll pay you ----- to do this job."

So the man does the job, but when it comes time to get paid, the other man -- who swore that he would pay him -- doesn't pay him anything. And he says that he was lying when he took the oath to God -- he didn't really mean it in his heart. Also his dad had pressured him into offering so much money for the job. And God knows that it wasn't a real vow!

But the man that did the job argues "No! It doesn't matter that you didn't mean the vow to God. You promised that you'd pay me and you need to keep your word and pay me!!"

And the other man just shrugs and laughs, "I didn't really mean the vow to God so it's exactly the same as if I never agreed to anything!"



So I've heard this story and I've heard that this guy has done this to a number of different guys. He offers me a job and vows that he will pay me a certain amount of money. Do you think that I'd trust him and consider going to work for him?

My friends -- who are religious -- argue that since he didn't mean the vows in his heart it was exactly the same as if he'd never made an agreement or a commitment to pay the man who did the work.

--------------

Now I would argue that there were two different promises -- or commitments -- made. The first one to the man, and the second one to God.

When somebody gets married they are making two commitments. The first one to the person that they're marrying, and the second one to God.

If they didn't really mean the vows -- or they had felt pressured into them -- then they had lied to the person that they married. And a "marriage" -- at least civil one -- actually took place. Vows were spoken, witnesses were present, rings were put on fingers, the woman's last name was changed, a legal document was created naming them man and wife, and they moved in together and began a sexual relationship as man and wife. At this point they are no longer "..exactly like.." somebody who has never been married. Unless you wanted to argue that they are like people who live together without marrying -- but still make a commitment to each other (Just not to God) -- and then later separate..

--------------

Why should I trust somebody who's gotten divorced -- even if they got an annulment? The guilt lies in the fact that they made a promise, a commitment, to each other -- that they did not keep.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322627871' post='2342513']

Why should I trust somebody who's gotten divorced -- even if they got an annulment? The guilt lies in the fact that they made a promise, a commitment, to each other -- that they did not keep.
[/quote]

Although I think I am making sense of the rest of your post, I just wanted to point out that there are some innocent victims of divorce - like those who have been abandoned by their spouse, or whose spouse pursued the divorce over their objection, or where there may have been one of the three "A"s that the other spouse was involved in (abuse, adultery, addiction) that degenerated into a harmful situation that could not be repaired. Even though I would not find myself compatible with them (since I am in the same demographic as you), I would not go so far as to automatically call ALL divorced people untrustworthy.

Out of curiosity, how does this relate to the theology of forgiveness?

Edited November 30, 2011 by Norseman82

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1322629174' post='2342536']

Although I think I am making sense of the rest of your post, I just wanted to point out that there are some innocent victims of divorce - like those who have been abandoned by their spouse, or whose spouse pursued the divorce over their objection, or where there may have been one of the three "A"s that the other spouse was involved in (abuse, adultery, addiction) that degenerated into a harmful situation that could not be repaired. Even though I would not find myself compatible with them (since I am in the same demographic as you), I would not go so far as to automatically call ALL divorced people untrustworthy.

Out of curiosity, how does this relate to the theology of forgiveness?
[/quote]

The protestants argue that to avoid adultery that they need to ask God for [i]forgiveness[/i] after getting a divorce. I don't really know what they mean but I decided to include it in this thread.

But I can see where somebody might ask for forgiveness because they broke their marriage commitment to their wife/husband and their kids. Maybe an apology would be in order to the ex-spouse and kids???

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322630478' post='2342550']

The protestants argue that to avoid adultery that they need to ask God for [i]forgiveness[/i] after getting a divorce. I don't really know what they mean but I decided to include it in this thread.

But I can see where somebody might ask for forgiveness because they broke their marriage commitment to their wife/husband and their kids. Maybe an apology would be in order to the ex-spouse and kids???
[/quote]

Ah, I see.

However, Rich, please remember what I said previously: [b]there is no one unified protestant theology. [/b]From that, there is no one policy on divorce. There are some protestants that hold to the "divorce/remarriage is adultery" (like Rev. Fred Phelps); others believe that provision does not apply to Christans (go figure); others believe that once one of the divorced spouses remarry, the other is now free to; some will claim "that was before I was a Christian" (making me wryly wonder if the number of times a person gets "saved" is proportional to the number of divorces one gets); and there are others that say that divorce and remarriage is just another sin to be forgiven, like cheating on your income taxes, which I believe is what you are referring to, correct? I have heard most if not all the above views, some personally from people I know. There are other denominations that may have still other policies. And, to my knowledge, the Eastern Orthodox follow a "three strikes" policy (they allow two remarriages after divorces).

Personally, I think that if a person were sincere about the apology, he/she would try to repair the damage and try to reconcile with the person they divorced.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Norseman82

[organwerke]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322625604' post='2342493']

But that doesn't affect the Priests decision about whether to grant an annulment -- does it?

I can imagine that you go into a marriage honestly meaning the vows you took -- including "..for better or for worse.." -- and the person who cheated also meant those vows. The cheating doesn't affect whether the marriage was valid or not to begin with -- does it? I can see those as reasons to ask for a divorce but not reasons to grant an annulment.



I would argue that if you really believe the vows that you took, and you really believe in god -- than you don't remarry. Taking the same exact vows multiple times with different people is a little ridiculous. It becomes a "..this time I really really really mean it!" thing -- does't it? Or you could get a civil marriage. What's the point of taking the same vows different times with different people. Is it like a promise that is strengthened by an oath to God?? Does the oath to God really strengthen the commitment?? I'm not sure that it does.
[/quote]

You does not answer my questions and what you write has nothing to do with forgieveness and the thread YOU opened.
Again you didn't answer any of my questions so I do not see why I should answer yours, anyway I simply want to answer this: "What's the point of taking the same vows different times with different people." Marriage is a sacrament where vows are made by two persons. So the vows must be honest by both persons in order to make the marriage validl. The fact that I took my vows honestly does not make the marriage valid if the other person was cheating.
On a last note: the day you will discover that the person who took the vows in front of God with you was cheating (not that I wish this ever happens to you) ,you'll see the things clearly. Anyway if you wonder I'm not annuled, in case you'd have the doubt.

Edited November 30, 2011 by organwerke

[Jaime]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1322543000' post='2342040']

With the exception of when he has posted while under the influence, what I see in SCG is someone who wants to live a genuine Catholic life but has been negatively affected by the liberal Catholicism that was prevalent during his youth/young adult years. Maybe I'm just more patient because I am in his age/marital status/sports demographic and have myself seen and been frustrated by some of the same stuff as he has.
[/quote]


Then you have missed A LOT of posts.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1322685161' post='2342830']

You does not answer my questions and what you write has nothing to do with forgieveness and the thread YOU opened.
Again you didn't answer any of my questions so I do not see why I should answer yours, anyway I simply want to answer this: "What's the point of taking the same vows different times with different people." Marriage is a sacrament where vows are made by two persons. So the vows must be honest by both persons in order to make the marriage validl. The fact that I took my vows honestly does not make the marriage valid if the other person was cheating.
On a last note: the day you will discover that the person who took the vows in front of God with you was cheating (not that I wish this ever happens to you) ,you'll see the things clearly. Anyway if you wonder I'm not annuled, in case you'd have the doubt.
[/quote]

I'm terrible about reading posts and answering questions... I guess that I just didn't read what you wrote carefully enough. I apologize. I'm going to go and cook a pot roast but I'll get to your post later and try to answer your questions.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1322517012' post='2341828']

Suppose that you are married and the person who is with you does not care at all about annullment.
This person simply does not want to live with you anymore (and probably never wanted to). This person simply wants to go with another man (or woman) and certainly does not need an annullment to do this. But this person wants you to pay her a lot of money because officially you are still her husband and so the law forces you to be tied to her even if she does not want to live with you and love you anymore. This person tries to do many thing -many legal things- to humiliate you and to harm you... You wants to persuade this person talking about the sacrament you asked and you received from God...this persons says that she does not believe it was really important and after all she does not care at all about the sacrament. This is a your problem, not hers.
This is not at all an exterme scenario: this is a very common situation. At least I know more than one situation like this. Do you think you would be able to forgive? What are your opinions on this? I wouldn't be able to express myself...really I can't think of a true complete answer to these questions...
I would think that if it is proved by the Church, the sacrament may result invalid. But still the problem of forgieveness remains and I haven't a solution for that...
[/quote]

I'm definitely not an example of perfection. I don't know if I would forgive an ex-spouse in that situation. It would really hurt and it would be hard to let go of. I could say that I had forgiven her. But I probably wouldn't really mean it.

When I was younger and in college I could have gotten married easily. There were women who would have married me in a second. But did they really love me? I don't think so... I think that maybe they just wanted to be married.. Did I really love them? No.. probably not. And I can imagine having her change her mind -- and divorce me -- and the feelings that would be connected.

I guess that a question is "What does forgiveness really mean?". Especially in a situation like that.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1322694857' post='2342904']


Then you have missed A LOT of posts.
[/quote]
Since you claim to be a Church scholar, then you would know that whenever a person decides to ask a genuine question they should receive a genuine answer irrespective of how they behaved previously. How many times did Jesus say you should forgive someone?