Forgiveness

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322361147' post='2340947']
What is required for forgiveness and what does it really mean?

Let's say that I punched "Jamie" in the face. "Jamie" could say that we just had a misunderstanding and forgive me. And then I would be forgiven right? But he would have to be the one that did the forgiving right? If "Jamie" refused to forgive me and "Nihil" told me that he forgave me for punching "Jaime" in the face, then I wouldn't really be forgiven would I?

You see where I'm going, right? If "Jamie" refused to forgive me could I circumvent him and say a prayer to Jesus and ask Jesus to forgive me -- for what I had done to "Jaime"? Or would "Jaime" still have to be the one who did the forgiving?


(The following is taken out of context and perhaps only has its proper meaning in the context of the Disciples who had received the Holy Spirit, but I still hear it tossed around a bit)

[b]John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.[/b]


Does the forgiveness have to come from the one you wronged? I know that from an atheist point of view that is the only thing that would make sense. From a religious one would it be argued that the "forgiveness" could have to do with your salvation? Can you be forgiven in a different way by god when the person doesn't forgive you? Can you go to confession and get "forgiven" for something that the person you wronged didn't forgive you for?

-------------

The Protestants argue that Christians can still get divorces so long as they ask Jesus for "forgiveness" afterwards -- and I assume this means that they can then get remarried without committing adultery.

Let's say that a man, who was having an affair with his secretary, divorced his wife -- so that he could marry his secretary.

Neither his kids nor his ex-wife forgave him for the divorce. His wife had felt that when he married her he had made a commitment to her and the future kids to be there for her and the kids. She felt that she could depend on him and trust him. And she needed him to help raise the kids.

Could he circumvent her and the kids and get forgiveness from God -- or "Jesus" instead? Would his being "forgiven" mean that he was going to go to heaven. So he could argue that while his ex-wife and kids hadn't forgiven him.. god had? Does that make logical sense? I don't fully understand the Protestant argument.

Within the Catholic church do annulments consider forgiveness? They seem rather shallow and self-centered to me. "[b]I[/b] didn't really mean the vows when [b]I[/b] took them." "I didn't really want to have kids -- even though we had some.." "I felt pressured to marry her." "I didn't know all that marriage could involve before I got married..." What about the wife? What about the kids? What about the responsibilities? Aren't these the factors that make it adultery? Didn't he need to be forgiven? Or did annulling the marriage circumvent any need for forgiveness?

What if he got the marriage annulled but his wife and kids never forgave him? Within the viewpoint of the Catholic church does it matter? Is it believed that God forgave him for something that he had done to his wife and kids -- because the marriage wasn't "valid"? Or that there was no sin that needed to be forgiven?

I'm a little confused about when forgiveness is needed and when it isn't. If the wife and kids felt wronged by the divorce and desertion, but the husband didn't -- who is right? From an atheists position wouldn't you argue that the man had wronged his wife and kids when he divorced for the other woman and left. But the religious position can be different can't it?

I'm no super intellectual so I'm no expert writer but hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to ask.

----------------------

And the idea of "wrongs" and "forgiveness" can differ between atheists and religious. If you missed Mass an atheist would see that as no wrong requiring no forgiveness (Since the atheist views God as make believe). A Catholic would view the wrong as being between him and God, and ask God for forgiveness, right? And interestingly enough when viewed that way both the Catholic and the atheist would agree that if God was the one wronged -- than in praying to God you would actually be asking forgiveness from the one who was wronged.

If you were a Catholic priest, and you broke your vows so that you could leave and marry, an atheist would see it as a case where nobody was wronged. A Catholic would feel that God had been wronged and therefore the former priest should ask God for forgiveness.

And at least that makes logical sense compared to God "forgiving" wrongs committed against other people -- without those people forgiving. Like my punching "Jaime" in the face -- and then being forgiven by God.
[/quote]

OK, there's a lot in here to digest, but I just wanted to start off by saying that sin hurts not only the people you hurt, but God as well. That is why we must seek forgiveness from God. Does that let us off the hook with the people we have hurt? No, it does not. Catholics believe that sacramental forgiveness does not erase the temporal consequences of sin. As far as we are able to, we must make amends. Example: Suppose Peter breaks Paul's car window out of malice. Peter goes to confession and receives absolution. He still must pay for Paul's window. In fact, the confessor may/should remind him of that.

I would have to read through the divorce part a few times to see what you are trying to ask, but as far as protestants (and this would not include all protestants, since there is no such thing as a unified protestant theology) saying that divorce and remarriage is just another sin to be forgiven, that would only be true if the remarried couple live as brother and sister; otherwise, each time they did the marital act, they would be committing adultery anew.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1322362102' post='2340962']
/troll

[img]http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr279/erman3157/thatsfunny.jpg[/img]

/endtroll
[/quote]
[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1322364270' post='2341007']
no poo, sherlock. and no matter how many times we try to explain it, he just keeps a'comin' back for more trollin'.
[/quote]

Get off the guy's case. It's a long road back for him; he has some questions and confusions about the faith - is he not one of the people we should be reaching out to? The "troll" commenst are uncalled for. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Especially you, Lil Red - you're a moderator, you're supposed to know better.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322365306' post='2341025']
I was never confirmed. Despite my frustrations with the modern Catholic church I think I will go through RCIA and finally get confirmed.
[/quote]

Best wishes. Too bad you didn't live in the Chicago area, I'd be willing to be your sponsor.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Norseman82

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1322369532' post='2341080']

Get off the guy's case. It's a long road back for him; he has some questions and confusions about the faith - is he not one of the people we should be reaching out to? The "troll" commenst are uncalled for. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Especially you, Lil Red - you're a moderator, you're supposed to know better.
[/quote]
I like that +1 votes are public now.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1322364270' post='2341007']
no poo, sherlock. and no matter how many times we try to explain it, he just keeps a'comin' back for more trollin'.
[/quote]


Forget to have your morning coffee today, Red? A tad hostile to poor lil me here.

I'm just trying to do the Christian thing by answering the unasked questions. He may be a troll, but he is also a very lonely guy who is looking for something and he isn't quite sure what. Yeah, he can try one's patience, but then just leave him to those who don't mind making the effort. When I am tired, I will hand it over to someone else who isn't.

---

As for you SCG - I think you really need to relax a little and stop trying to figure it all out. God is never going to fit into your little box, and neither is the Church. From what you have posted over a long time, your main focus is to find a woman (who must be a virgin who has never been married - even if that marriage has been annuled) and thinks you are marriage material because you have a house etc etc. Why you look here is beyond me because you aren't really a Catholic at all (yet) and this place is full of very traditional and faithful Catholics who are going to be more interested in your faithfulness to the Magesterium than your material abundance (hopefully).

Yes, by all means, go through RCIA (but a one to one with your priest would be good too) and get confirmed, but hopefully not just as a way to meet girls. Start really looking for God and maybe you will find what you're really looking for!!

And stop fretting over the whole annulment thing - you don't have to understand all of the Church's teachings. You just have to follow them. And if you really want to understand, then you are not going to find the answers on an Internet forum. The Church has had thousands of years to work out her teachings and to build upon them, start a course in theology if you are that interested.

Red is right in that you ask questions over and over again but don't appear to take in anything that has been said. Read back over some of the old posts and try to understand what has been told to you already. Otherwise, you really are wasting your time (those of us who choose to respond to you are responsible for our own time). And if none of the answers here satisfy you, then maybe you are asking in the wrong place? Go find a priest.

[BarbTherese]

Sometimes we can discover we are wrong and ask forgiveness of another but that other refuses to forgive. Jesus has commanded us to always forgive as many times as necessary (70 times 7 or infinity) including our enemies. If the other refuses forgiveness, despite our sorrow for deed done, we can as Catholics approach The Lord in the Sacrament of Confession and He forgives our offence against our neighbour - who then can stand against Him?

An annulment is a long process of investigation by The Church that states that a marriage never occured in the first place in the eyes of The Church. Whichever partner at the time of the marriage was in the wrong and the basis of the annulment may need to ask much forgiveness, including that of God.

If God forgives, who then has the right to refuse forgiveness?

And the Sacrament of Confession is more than simply to confess the sin or sins. To be forgiven one must be indeed sorry, regret what happened and have a firm and sincere intention of avoiding those sin(s) in the future. One must also perform that penance that Father imposes.

[MIKolbe]

Let's say i punched "SCG" in the face or took one of his stupid potted plants and threw it at him, hitting him about the minuscule groin area. Further, let's say I verbally berated him for his laughable post content on a forum we both happen to frequent. Hypothetically speaking, of course. If "SCG" were to forgive me, I would still need to confess to a priest because my sin also affects God. (This is were the scripture, from John 20:23 comes into play) It is a sin against "SCG" and God. From a salvation POV, I need God's forgiveness, not "SCG" 's. However, SCG should forgive me, not for me; but more for himself. This of course is requisite on me truly being sorry, or having contrition.

If, by some odd alignment of the stars, "SCG" gets married in the Church and then wants to have an extramarital affair with the checkout lady from the local Lowe's; he cannot just get an annulment. An annulment is not a divorce and vice versa. An annulment is a 'declaration' (can't find the right word) that a sacramental marriage never, in fact, took place. As to forgiveness, that might be considered ill placed in the subject of annulments. It's almost like getting a new transmission for your car, but wondering if you need to air up your tires...but then I could be wrong.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1322372824' post='2341107']


Forget to have your morning coffee today, Red? A tad hostile to poor lil me here.

I'm just trying to do the Christian thing by answering the unasked questions. He may be a troll, but he is also a very lonely guy who is looking for something and he isn't quite sure what. Yeah, he can try one's patience, but then just leave him to those who don't mind making the effort. When I am tired, I will hand it over to someone else who isn't.

---

As for you SCG - I think you really need to relax a little and stop trying to figure it all out. God is never going to fit into your little box, and neither is the Church. From what you have posted over a long time, your main focus is to find a woman (who must be a virgin who has never been married - even if that marriage has been annuled) and thinks you are marriage material because you have a house etc etc. Why you look here is beyond me because you aren't really a Catholic at all (yet) and this place is full of very traditional and faithful Catholics who are going to be more interested in your faithfulness to the Magesterium than your material abundance (hopefully).

Yes, by all means, go through RCIA (but a one to one with your priest would be good too) and get confirmed, but hopefully not just as a way to meet girls. Start really looking for God and maybe you will find what you're really looking for!!

And stop fretting over the whole annulment thing - you don't have to understand all of the Church's teachings. You just have to follow them. And if you really want to understand, then you are not going to find the answers on an Internet forum. The Church has had thousands of years to work out her teachings and to build upon them, start a course in theology if you are that interested.

Red is right in that you ask questions over and over again but don't appear to take in anything that has been said. Read back over some of the old posts and try to understand what has been told to you already. Otherwise, you really are wasting your time (those of us who choose to respond to you are responsible for our own time). And if none of the answers here satisfy you, then maybe you are asking in the wrong place? Go find a priest.
[/quote]

You are right I am looking for a wife. And a virgin would be nice but mainly I'm looking for a woman who is celibate, hasn't been married, and doesn't already have kids. They do exist! But that is not the reason that I'm here. If I found somebody here she would probably live a long ways away from me. And long distance "dating" is insanity -- I've tried it... But I am considering becoming confirmed in the Catholic church. And I'd love to find a Catholic woman who has similar morals.

And as far as discussing, and debating the disagreements that I have with the Catholic church this is a far safer place to do it than in person -- or at RCIA. I'm relatively anonymous here. And I think that I'm coming to terms with some of the differences that I have with the Catholic church. I'll just be one of those Catholics who doesn't honestly agree with all of the modern changes in the Catholic church.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1322400201' post='2341142']
Let's say i punched "SCG" in the face or took one of his stupid potted plants and threw it at him, hitting him about the minuscule groin area. Further, let's say I verbally berated him for his laughable post content on a forum we both happen to frequent. Hypothetically speaking, of course. If "SCG" were to forgive me, I would still need to confess to a priest because my sin also affects God. (This is were the scripture, from John 20:23 comes into play) It is a sin against "SCG" and God. From a salvation POV, I need God's forgiveness, not "SCG" 's. However, SCG should forgive me, not for me; but more for himself. This of course is requisite on me truly being sorry, or having contrition.

If, by some odd alignment of the stars, "SCG" gets married in the Church and then wants to have an extramarital affair with the checkout lady from the local Lowe's; he cannot just get an annulment. An annulment is not a divorce and vice versa. An annulment is a 'declaration' (can't find the right word) that a sacramental marriage never, in fact, took place. As to forgiveness, that might be considered ill placed in the subject of annulments. It's almost like getting a new transmission for your car, but wondering if you need to air up your tires...but then I could be wrong.
[/quote]

So there are basically two different types of forgiveness? The forgiveness from the person you have wronged, and then the forgiveness from God? So the Catholics believe that even if the person you have wronged has forgiven you -- that you still need to go to confession and confess that sin?

[sixpence]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322403954' post='2341148']

So there are basically two different types of forgiveness? The forgiveness from the person you have wronged, and then the forgiveness from God? So the Catholics believe that even if the person you have wronged has forgiven you -- that you still need to go to confession and confess that sin?
[/quote]

yup ...you still did something to separate yourself from God by not following his command to love one another... He still needs to forgive you.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1322369532' post='2341080']
Get off the guy's case. It's a long road back for him; he has some questions and confusions about the faith - is he not one of the people we should be reaching out to? The "troll" commenst are uncalled for. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Especially you, Lil Red - you're a moderator, you're supposed to know better.[/quote]
Every time he comes to phatmass, he asks pretty much the exact same questions and then ignores all the answers given. His behavior is consistently that of a troll. Gonna call it like I see it.

Nunsense, you read something into my post that was not there. Was not being hostile to you.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322403954' post='2341148']

So there are basically two different types of forgiveness? The forgiveness from the person you have wronged, and then the forgiveness from God? So the Catholics believe that even if the person you have wronged has forgiven you -- that you still need to go to confession and confess that sin?
[/quote]
not quite, but maybe

[Winchester]

If she isn't married, she's celibate. You're looking for chastity.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1322400201' post='2341142']
Let's say i punched "SCG" in the face or took one of his stupid potted plants and threw it at him, hitting him about the minuscule groin area. [/quote]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1322409334' post='2341172']
Every time he comes to phatmass, he asks pretty much the exact same questions and then ignores all the answers given. His behavior is consistently that of a troll. Gonna call it like I see it.[/quote]

I share some of the same frustrations that SCG does - so does that now mean that the regulator/admin class is going to start calling me a troll and make comments about the size of my groin area too?

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322403954' post='2341148']

So there are basically two different types of forgiveness? The forgiveness from the person you have wronged, and then the forgiveness from God? So the Catholics believe that even if the person you have wronged has forgiven you -- that you still need to go to confession and confess that sin?
[/quote]

All that is good has its origin and end in God - and when a person forgives, this is a good. In other words, the forgiveness offfered by another is from God also for the offence committed against our neighbour; however, in some cases we have not only separated ourselves from our neighbour through some act against him, but also from God and His Church (mortal sin) and in this case, it must be confessed by a Catholic in the Sacrament of Confession for God's Forgiveness and to be united back with His Church.
If our offence was mortally sinful and there are three conditions necessary at the exact same time for a sin to be mortal:[list]
[*]Grave matter
[*]Full knowledge
[*]Full consent
[/list]
See Catholic Catechism here: [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#1856"]http://www.scborrome...s1c1a8.htm#1856[/url] (there would be benefit in reading the whole page which is not overly lengthy but contains much that is very valuable and important about mortal sin and sin in general)


If our offence against our neighbour was not mortally sinful, it is called venial sin and God forgives venial sins in very many ways outside of the Sacrament of Confession including being truly sorry for our offence and also including by going to Holy Communion - as well as in many other ways. In short, Catholics are not bound to confess venial sin, but are bound to confess mortal sin.