southern california guy Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) What is required for forgiveness and what does it really mean? Let's say that I punched "Jamie" in the face. "Jamie" could say that we just had a misunderstanding and forgive me. And then I would be forgiven right? But he would have to be the one that did the forgiving right? If "Jamie" refused to forgive me and "Nihil" told me that he forgave me for punching "Jaime" in the face, then I wouldn't really be forgiven would I? You see where I'm going, right? If "Jamie" refused to forgive me could I circumvent him and say a prayer to Jesus and ask Jesus to forgive me -- for what I had done to "Jaime"? Or would "Jaime" still have to be the one who did the forgiving? (The following is taken out of context and perhaps only has its proper meaning in the context of the Disciples who had received the Holy Spirit, but I still hear it tossed around a bit) [b]John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.[/b] Does the forgiveness have to come from the one you wronged? I know that from an atheist point of view that is the only thing that would make sense. From a religious one would it be argued that the "forgiveness" could have to do with your salvation? Can you be forgiven in a different way by god when the person doesn't forgive you? Can you go to confession and get "forgiven" for something that the person you wronged didn't forgive you for? ------------- The Protestants argue that Christians can still get divorces so long as they ask Jesus for "forgiveness" afterwards -- and I assume this means that they can then get remarried without committing adultery. Let's say that a man, who was having an affair with his secretary, divorced his wife -- so that he could marry his secretary. Neither his kids nor his ex-wife forgave him for the divorce. His wife had felt that when he married her he had made a commitment to her and the future kids to be there for her and the kids. She felt that she could depend on him and trust him. And she needed him to help raise the kids. Could he circumvent her and the kids and get forgiveness from God -- or "Jesus" instead? Would his being "forgiven" mean that he was going to go to heaven. So he could argue that while his ex-wife and kids hadn't forgiven him.. god had? Does that make logical sense? I don't fully understand the Protestant argument. Within the Catholic church do annulments consider forgiveness? They seem rather shallow and self-centered to me. "[b]I[/b] didn't really mean the vows when [b]I[/b] took them." "I didn't really want to have kids -- even though we had some.." "I felt pressured to marry her." "I didn't know all that marriage could involve before I got married..." What about the wife? What about the kids? What about the responsibilities? Aren't these the factors that make it adultery? Didn't he need to be forgiven? Or did annulling the marriage circumvent any need for forgiveness? What if he got the marriage annulled but his wife and kids never forgave him? Within the viewpoint of the Catholic church does it matter? Is it believed that God forgave him for something that he had done to his wife and kids -- because the marriage wasn't "valid"? Or that there was no sin that needed to be forgiven? I'm a little confused about when forgiveness is needed and when it isn't. If the wife and kids felt wronged by the divorce and desertion, but the husband didn't -- who is right? From an atheists position wouldn't you argue that the man had wronged his wife and kids when he divorced for the other woman and left. But the religious position can be different can't it? I'm no super intellectual so I'm no expert writer but hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to ask. ---------------------- And the idea of "wrongs" and "forgiveness" can differ between atheists and religious. If you missed Mass an atheist would see that as no wrong requiring no forgiveness (Since the atheist views God as make believe). A Catholic would view the wrong as being between him and God, and ask God for forgiveness, right? And interestingly enough when viewed that way both the Catholic and the atheist would agree that if God was the one wronged -- than in praying to God you would actually be asking forgiveness from the one who was wronged. If you were a Catholic priest, and you broke your vows so that you could leave and marry, an atheist would see it as a case where nobody was wronged. A Catholic would feel that God had been wronged and therefore the former priest should ask God for forgiveness. And at least that makes logical sense compared to God "forgiving" wrongs committed against other people -- without those people forgiving. Like my punching "Jaime" in the face -- and then being forgiven by God. Edited November 27, 2011 by southern california guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 /troll [img]http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr279/erman3157/thatsfunny.jpg[/img] /endtroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJon16 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 [img]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5asSgqecOMY/TbziKyjDY6I/AAAAAAAABRs/_v37WqZ18X8/Divine Mercy Clouds_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800[/img] Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Com'on you guys give me some feedback. Tell me if my arguments are crazy or whatever they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I think you really don't have a very clear understanding of either forgiveness or annulments within the teachings of the Catholic church. Have you considered perhaps doing some kind of RCIA course for returning Catholics? There isn't much point in describing what atheists believe about either forgiveness or divorce since they don't have an organised teaching authority and each one of them probably has their own opinion about what constitutes forgiveness and whether or not divorce is acceptable. I don't want to try to replace proper teaching authority for you but there are some things that could be addressed simply. 1) The Catholic Church does not allow divorce. 2) Annulment is NOT the same as divorce (not matter how much you try to make them the same) 3) The scripture you quoted is the basis for priests being allowed to hear Confession and give absolution. 4) You can forgive another person in your heart or not but the main benefit is to the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven. 5) God's forgiveness is what is needed for salvation... hence the Sacrament of Reconciliation (and for this, conditions must be met) To fully understand the faith, you might need to go a bit deeper than you have already. I strongly suggest further instruction in the faith either through a priest or course of study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I know a guy named Jamie, but I'm pretty sure you don't know him, and probably haven't punched him in the face. However I might have, because he takes karate at the same place as me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) [size=8]BOW TO YOUR SHINSEI![/size] Edited November 27, 2011 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1322363138' post='2340982'] [size=8]BOW TO YOUR SHINSEI![/size] [/quote] [img]http://obit-mag.com/media/image/Bowing-Man.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 [size=8]SWEEP THE LEG[/size][size=8]![/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 [media='']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFlQNtL8F9s[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1322362940' post='2340977']I think you really don't have a very clear understanding of either forgiveness or annulments within the teachings of the Catholic church. [/quote] no poo, sherlock. and no matter how many times we try to explain it, he just keeps a'comin' back for more trollin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJon16 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1322364270' post='2341007'] no poo, sherlock. and no matter how many times we try to explain it, he just keeps a'comin' back for more trollin'. [/quote] "They see me trollin', they hatin'..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1322362940' post='2340977'] I think you really don't have a very clear understanding of either forgiveness or annulments within the teachings of the Catholic church. Have you considered perhaps doing some kind of RCIA course for returning Catholics? There isn't much point in describing what atheists believe about either forgiveness or divorce since they don't have an organised teaching authority and each one of them probably has their own opinion about what constitutes forgiveness and whether or not divorce is acceptable. I don't want to try to replace proper teaching authority for you but there are some things that could be addressed simply. 1) The Catholic Church does not allow divorce. 2) Annulment is NOT the same as divorce (not matter how much you try to make them the same) 3) The scripture you quoted is the basis for priests being allowed to hear Confession and give absolution. 4) You can forgive another person in your heart or not but the main benefit is to the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven. 5) God's forgiveness is what is needed for salvation... hence the Sacrament of Reconciliation (and for this, conditions must be met) To fully understand the faith, you might need to go a bit deeper than you have already. I strongly suggest further instruction in the faith either through a priest or course of study. [/quote] Thank you. This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. The argument about the forgiver getting the benefit is a very good one. Is the divorce followed by praying for forgiveness argument strictly a Protestant belief? I was never confirmed. Despite my frustrations with the modern Catholic church I think I will go through RCIA and finally get confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1322362990' post='2340979'] I know a guy named Jamie, but I'm pretty sure you don't know him, and probably haven't punched him in the face. However I might have, because he takes karate at the same place as me. [/quote] No I don't take karate. However I did take tae kwon do back when I lived near Sacramento. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 [quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1322365434' post='2341028'] No I don't take karate. However I did take tae kwon do back when I lived near Sacramento. [/quote] So presumably not in my city any time in the last ten years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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