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[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1321414850' post='2336740']

some people are
[/quote]
Yes, I guess so...

[i<3franciscans]

Thanks so much for this.... it needs to be here.

[MithLuin]

Not to excuse any one's actions, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there are some bitter people out there who were not able to enter religious life. Perhaps life circumstances were such that they never had an opportunity to try, or perhaps they entered somewhere and were asked to leave.

Obviously, we have many supportive people who post here who were in those situations. So, it really is no excuse. But it can't be...surprising...that some people would allow their own pain and bitterness to turn them spiteful towards others (perhaps those who are 'living the dream' that they cannot). It's a very human response; we're all fallen and in need of prayers.

And...there's always mental illness. A brother once told me, 'Religious life attracts the crazies,' by which he meant that wearing one's habit out in public is an invitation for mentally unstable people to come talk to you. You can make a ministry out of that (it's not a bad thing), but it's important to be aware of. I imagine some people who are looking for that kind of thing can find Vocation Station as well.



If anything is meant to be private...it should be said in a PM. If it's on a thread here, it's public for the whole world to read. Important reminder, so thank you.

[beatitude]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1321569279' post='2337543']
Not to excuse any one's actions, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there are some bitter people out there who were not able to enter religious life. Perhaps life circumstances were such that they never had an opportunity to try, or perhaps they entered somewhere and were asked to leave.

Obviously, we have many supportive people who post here who were in those situations. So, it really is no excuse. But it can't be...surprising...that some people would allow their own pain and bitterness to turn them spiteful towards others (perhaps those who are 'living the dream' that they cannot). It's a very human response; we're all fallen and in need of prayers.

And...there's always mental illness. A brother once told me,[b] 'Religious life attracts the crazies,' [/b]by which he meant that wearing one's habit out in public is an invitation for mentally unstable people to come talk to you. You can make a ministry out of that (it's not a bad thing), but it's important to be aware of. I imagine some people who are looking for that kind of thing can find Vocation Station as well.
[/quote]

The part that I have put in bold is a very uncharitable way to describe people with mental illness. It is much more nuanced than is commonly imagined, and the vast majority of people with these problems wouldn't contact somebody else's religious superior to talk about them behind their back. Some of the best and most sensitive advice I have ever had came from a woman who was so severely unwell in her mind that she couldn't live independently. It reinforces the stereotypes that people like her have to deal with if we start promoting the idea that because a person has violated privacy in this way, they probably have a mental illness.

I'm pretty upset that a brother would describe people who seek him out for support as 'the crazies'. Oh well. Perhaps he was just having a bad day, and he doesn't really think of them like that.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1321571751' post='2337550']

The part that I have put in bold is a very uncharitable way to describe people with mental illness. It is much more nuanced than is commonly imagined, and the vast majority of people with these problems wouldn't contact somebody else's religious superior to talk about them behind their back. Some of the best and most sensitive advice I have ever had came from a woman who was so severely unwell in her mind that she couldn't live independently. It reinforces the stereotypes that people like her have to deal with if we start promoting the idea that because a person has violated privacy in this way, they probably have a mental illness.

I'm pretty upset that a brother would describe people who seek him out for support as 'the crazies'. Oh well. Perhaps he was just having a bad day, and he doesn't really think of them like that.
[/quote]

Thank you for this thoughtful post. Stereotypes can be so damaging, and the only one who truly knows each heart is God.

[CatherineM]

My husband has two friends who were in seminary when they came down with schizophrenia and one who was in rabbinical school. For some reason, schizophrenia often develops religious ideation, that and the government or aliens.

As to contacting someone's superior, that's just sick.

[Discipulus]

This is my first post at Phatmass, even though I've been lurking around this forum for a few weeks; and if anyone reads it, I don't think it will make me very popular, but hey. I'll just have to live with that. You see, one of the reasons I haven't felt comfortable enough to contribute before now is precisely because of the subject being addressed in this thread.

It's like this. I'm a religious in formation in the UK. I've read a number of threads here that name people I know very well, or in some cases I know - very well - people who know - very well - the people named or otherwise identified (hope that odd syntax makes sense). I've been a little hurt on the behalf of some of these named individuals to see them occasionally being the subject of equivocal remarks or even of implied criticism; and in fact, equally uncomfortable about them being discussed even in a positive light, because I simply don't think it's appropriate for identifiable individuals to be discussed on a forum like this. By the way, saying 'the prioress of x monastery', or 'the novice director of z congregation' doesn't grant anonymity to someone - not if you happen to know x monastery or z congregation.

An example; there was a recent reference to a sister here in England who has been diagnosed with a terminal illness which made reference to details of her previous health issues, and this person was named; I happen to know someone (not a member of this sister's community) who is a friend of the sister, and I had heard of her recent diagnosis by that route via a request made to me for prayers; and I felt awful to see this kind of personal information being displayed here - my friend certainly hadn't told me about the sister's previous medical history, nor should she have. If in fact this mail was made with the sister's permission, a note to that effect should have been made within the mail in question. Otherwise it either [u]was[/u], or [u]looked like[/u], a gross invasion of privacy. And neither of those things is acceptable.

This is so wrong. Although I don't think a comparison between religious discernment and romantic relationships always offers a perfect analogy, I'll nevertheless make the comparison here, and ask whether people would think it was legitimate and ethical for a spouse or fiance(e) to name you and discuss details of your personal life on a forum like this; or make comments about the private lives of their in-laws - that is, your family - even if well-intended or positive. Is this really the right place to do such things? Intimate details like this [u]could[/u] be discussed here, but in a way that was completely anonymous. Much of what I've read here doesn't begin to meet that criterion.

There's been some comments in this thread about how unreasonable it would be for someone to contact an individual or community named here to tell them that they're being referenced; well, if that was done spitefully or maliciously it [u]would[/u] be unreasonable. But although I haven't done it, I have been very tempted to contact people named here myself, most especially those whom I know, and tell them that they have an enquirer or aspirant who is discussing the intimate details of their application here online. Certainly if a member of my own religious institute were to enter into this kind of public exposition here I wouldn't hesitate to inform our formation team, and I would expect them to see it as a red flag for the individual concerned, and very possibly a reason to dismiss them.

I'll offer an integrity test to anyone here who cares to take it up, and to whom it would apply: are you ready to go to the community or individuals you've referenced here at the forum, and tell them what you've said about them? And just as importantly, to tell them that you've said these things about them here? Because if you're not, it's because you know that what you've done is wrong.

This isn't a quiet chat at Starbucks, or an update to your friends down the pub, or a conversation had during a walk in the monastery grounds. It's a public forum available to (even if in this case, fortunately, not accessed by) literally billions of surfers, and I think it's outrageous that any identifiable individual or group should be named here unless their permission has [u]explicitly been sought[/u] and is explicitly referred to [u]in each mail[/u] that mentions them. The fact that this basic human courtesy hasn't been observed here is what had discouraged me from becoming involved in discussions, and doesn't make me want to stay here.

I'm pretty sure some people will strongly disagree with me here, but I will be happy to be wrong in that assumption.

Prayers and best wishes to all.

[Strictlyinkblot]

Dear Discipulus

Thank you for your post. It made me think long and hard about what I've previously posted. My intentions were good but that isn't the point when harm or embarrassment has been caused. My only defense is that I was carried away with enthusiasm after my live-in and I wanted to talk about it on here. That's no excuse and I should have used more common sense before posting.

I've apologised to those affected and I'm going to step back from Phatmass a little. I won't stop posting but I think for the moment at least I won't put up any thing about my own discernment. I don't want to cause any more damage.

God bless

[Maximilianus]

People on Phatmass volunteer too much information on threads, on all the forums. More discretion needs to be excercised.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Maximilianus

[i<3LSOP]

Thanks so much red, I forget sometimes.

Does that mean that no one should know my real name on here?

Okay, everyone for safety.... call me my nickname used by friends. Here it is:


Bill

[i<3LSOP]

I did tell my vocation story on here, but it doesn't give to much personal things out.....

[InPersonaChriste]

This thread is good.. but it makes me want to clear everything on phatmass and change my name so that the internet doesnt know as much about me...

*headdesk*

[Discipulus]

[quote name='Strictlyinkblot' timestamp='1321634264' post='2337893']
I won't stop posting but I think for the moment at least I won't put up any thing about my own discernment. I don't want to cause any more damage.
[/quote]

It's a shame that you think you have to stop posting, and a shame that you can't share more about your discernment, because it seems to me that the only reason this forum exists is so that people can support each other. However, if we already know where you've been discerning, I guess it would be hard to talk more about it without further disclosure - if in fact, your disclosure was made without permission. If you did have permission, then saying so would be enough to correct any misapprehensions readers might have.

I didn't write my post above so as to discourage people from posting here; and I'm sure people don't want to be patronised by me, but perhaps I could give a couple of examples of how I think people may have/might choose to talk about themselves here, and so allow posting to continue:

[b]Story One[/b]. I've just been in contact with Sr Immaculata of the Holy-Holy-Holy Sisters in Edinburgh. She says that the problems I had with the Holier-Than-Thou Nuns of Birmingham, and especially the antagonistic relationship I had there with the novice mistress Sister Ferocia, won't be a block to my applying to them. She says that the HTT sisters are very odd and not at all faithful to the magisterium, so she's not surprised that I didn't like it there. And also that she's heard that Sr Ferocia has had a couple of depressive episodes over the years, and that her judgement is very suspect! So I'm feeling a lot better now. By the way, I ran into Fr Peter of my home parish of Assumpta at the Crypt cafe today - what a lovely man! Glad it wasn't Father Paul - I mean, I'm sure he's a good man too, but he can be very tiring!

[b]Story Two[/b]. I've just been in contact with a community in Scotland. The sister I spoke to says that the problems I had with the English community that I previously spent some time with wouldn't be a bar to making an application to them. She also said that she thought I wouldn't have been a good fit with that community, and that their approach - including that of the novice mistress - might not have been right for me. So I'm feeling very encouraged. By the way, I met this priest I know in town. He's a wonderful man, and I always look forward to talking with him; but I'm often reluctant to visit him at the presbytery, because I'm a little wary of one of the other priests who works in his parish. So God really sent me the right person to listen to me today.

Which story is more respectful of the people involved? And do both stories manage to get the important information across, and is the editorialising and name-dropping actually quite unnecessary in terms of telling the reader what's going on for the person who's telling the story?

Before anyone else says it, I know that there haven't been many disclosures here of the story one variety, and I'm not for one second suggesting that everyone who has shared personal information here has done it that kind of way, or would ever consider doing so. And if you've got permission, no problems, so long as we that's stated. But it seems to me that there have been a number of posts that I've read here which skirted pretty close to the tone of story one. It just isn't necessary.

By now people may think I'm pretty holier-than-thou myself, or really good at stating the obvious, or just plain flogging a deceased equine. If my posts didn't apply to you, please don't take offence, and I'm sorry for wasting your time; if they might apply to you, please think it over. People's stories are valuable, and they need to be heard here. But please, only in a safe and respectful way.

[i<3LSOP]

[quote name='InPersonaChriste' timestamp='1321637156' post='2337910']
This thread is good.. but it makes me want to clear everything on phatmass and change my name so that the internet doesnt know as much about me...

*headdesk*
[/quote]


I agree

[Strictlyinkblot]

The community knew I'd posted here, I'd mentioned them before my live-in, and they'd read some of the posts, but that's not the same as permission obviously. I won't stop posting but I think I need to step back as I don't want to cause any more issues. Again, thank you for bringing this to our attention. It shouldn't have needed to be done but there you are.