Attenboroughs Reason For Atheism

[stevil]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1321152732' post='2335607']
I would say the same for theists.
[/quote]
I wouldn't

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321160243' post='2335628']
I wouldn't
[/quote]
Anyone who is not tolerant and loving is at odds with the teaching of mainstream religions. If they claim to be theist then they are possibly impostors. All mainstream religions teach love and tolerance as a major requirement. If you are referring to extremists, they are serving the devil satan and are not true to their religion. Anyone who wishes to spread hatred or contempt of other religions unnecessarily is thinking like a human. To serve God we must think Nostra Aetate! Briefly it is 'The Declaration begins by describing the unity of the origin of all people, and the fact that they all return to God; It is our mission to guide all people toward Christianity in a loving and tolerant manner.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321160243' post='2335628']
I wouldn't
[/quote]


I would say that theist who are intolerant and unloving are super far away from the entire point of Theism, especially Christianity. I have known some of those Christians. It makes me sad. I guess I can kind of understand where the idea of intolerance comes from, but I think that what is mostly just believing something to be true is sometimes confused for intolerance. (Probably because of lack of true Christian love).

If we believe that homosexual acts are wrong, that does not mean that we think there is something wrong with the homosexual person.
If we believe that abortion is wrong, it does not mean that we should shun the woman who had an abortion.
If I believe that something is wrong, I am not going to tell my friend that it's ok for him to act that way because "it feels good" or "it's all the same" or "your truth is different than my truth". I'm not going to love that friend any less, but I'm not going say that something I know is wrong is ok for the benefit of that friend's feelings.

And yeah, I've lost friends (heck, I lost a boyfriend) over these things. I love them all very much. But I wouldn't tell them that those things were ok. It's not intolerance, though it is often thought to be so.

[stevil]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1321169955' post='2335640']
I would say that theist who are intolerant and unloving are super far away from the entire point of Theism, especially Christianity. I have known some of those Christians. It makes me sad. I guess I can kind of understand where the idea of intolerance comes from, but I think that what is mostly just believing something to be true is sometimes confused for intolerance. (Probably because of lack of true Christian love).

If we believe that homosexual acts are wrong, that does not mean that we think there is something wrong with the homosexual person.
If we believe that abortion is wrong, it does not mean that we should shun the woman who had an abortion.
If I believe that something is wrong, I am not going to tell my friend that it's ok for him to act that way because "it feels good" or "it's all the same" or "your truth is different than my truth". I'm not going to love that friend any less, but I'm not going say that something I know is wrong is ok for the benefit of that friend's feelings.

And yeah, I've lost friends (heck, I lost a boyfriend) over these things. I love them all very much. But I wouldn't tell them that those things were ok. It's not intolerance, though it is often thought to be so.
[/quote]
Tolerance within theism is a complex subject.
My perception of it, being an outsider is likely flawed, but it comes from observations not from indepth knowledge or objective studies.
I think it is fine for an individual to believe that homosexual acts are wrong, and it is fine for that person to act on those beliefs by not participating in homosexual activities. It is OK if when asked for advise that this person expresses their own opinion and references their scripture.
But when this extends to supporting law to make these things illegal for all, or carrying picket signs at funerals, or acting poorly towards gay people, or boycotting their work (albums, movies, etc) or telling them they are wrong without them asking for opinions first, or denying them to stay at a publicly available bed and breakfast then these actions are intolerant.

Edited November 13, 2011 by stevil

[Aloysius]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321038294' post='2335014']
So lets put this into a real world perspective.
If a loved one of yours, lets say your Mother gets cancer and is dying in hospital in a slow excrusiating death or maybe a daughter falls into a boiling mud pool and comes out alive but her skin falls off in a melted mess and she is in agony and suffers through the rest of her life due to being deformed. Or maybe a new born baby, your loved, innocent baby gets this horrid paracite burrowing through its eyes, inflicting pain and blinding it.
Would you then pray to your god and give thanks for the wonderful lesson being taught to your loved one. Feel warm fuzzies that it is your loved one being touched by your beloved god and honoured by learning such a valuable lesson? God is great and wonderful and your family is blessed.
[/quote]
my mom did get cancer and died last year a pretty painful death. and yes, I did take much solace in the fact that she was close to the cross of Christ, being made perfect by the trial by fire. it was sad, I wasn't happy about it, but yes that is the way I viewed it. I touched a crucifix to her lips just before she died. it wasn't all warm and fuzzy, but yes it was absolutely meaningful.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321177430' post='2335656']
Tolerance within theism is a complex subject.
My perception of it, being an outsider is likely flawed, but it comes from observations not from indepth knowledge or objective studies.
I think it is fine for an individual to believe that homosexual acts are wrong, and it is fine for that person to act on those beliefs by not participating in homosexual activities. It is OK if when asked for advise that this person expresses their own opinion and references their scripture.
But when this extends to supporting law to make these things illegal for all, or carrying picket signs at funerals, or acting poorly towards gay people, or boycotting their work (albums, movies, etc) or telling them they are wrong without them asking for opinions first, or denying them to stay at a publicly available bed and breakfast then these actions are intolerant.
[/quote]
I'd like to give you props for this, it is a good description. Christians are taught that they must teach others the error of sin, but this is often taken out of context like so many things. How a person should behave should be based on the likely outcome and also taking other things into consideration like being judgemental and respecting a persons right to privacy. To tell a stranger that their gay tendencies is a sin may not be right because that person may be well aware of that and already struggling with inner conflict. Whereas say a relative or friend is considering having an abortion it would be a paramount duty for a Christian to tell them that it is a mortal sin and to try to talk them out of it. I have a number of very close friends who are atheist. They know I'm a devout Christian and Catholic catechist, do I need to tell them the error of their ways. It will only result in no more friendship. I think it better to remain silent, nurture the friendship, show them Christ in my behaviour and thus have a better chance to bring them to the light.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321038294' post='2335014']
So lets put this into a real world perspective.
If a loved one of yours, lets say your Mother gets cancer and is dying in hospital in a slow excrusiating death or maybe a daughter falls into a boiling mud pool and comes out alive but her skin falls off in a melted mess and she is in agony and suffers through the rest of her life due to being deformed. Or maybe a new born baby, your loved, innocent baby gets this horrid paracite burrowing through its eyes, inflicting pain and blinding it.
Would you then pray to your god and give thanks for the wonderful lesson being taught to your loved one. Feel warm fuzzies that it is your loved one being touched by your beloved god and honoured by learning such a valuable lesson? God is great and wonderful and your family is blessed.
[/quote]
I personally don't see the necessity of suffering as a cure for sin. Forgiveness is the only way to negate sin. Once you have committed a sin you can never unsin, it is there for all time! Suffering negates sin by a secondary effect. I know a lady who is a devout Catholic, suffers horribly from every joint being destroyed by arthritis. Instead of feeling sorry for herself she spends her life in service of her God. She is an inspiration to us all to pick up our cross and follow Jesus in the way he demonstrated. If there is no suffering in the world how can we learn love and compassion as I already told you is evident in the third world. I have clinical anxiety, every week I go to meetings to help make enquirers welcome. That lady inspires me to embrace my fears and phobias about public speaking and I offer it up to God as a demonstration of my love for him. Whenever a panic attack seems as if it will overcome me, I silently pray for help. He never fails in lessening it to a point to where I can manage it.