Winchester Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1320861463' post='2333817'] The Atheist message to the world is tolerance and love. [/quote] I thought the atheist message was that there isn't a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1321053483' post='2335113'] I thought the atheist message was that there isn't a god. [/quote] We are both stretching it. I have stated in posts above that I was generalising. But a correction on your statement. Most Atheists lack a belief in gods, it doesn't mean that we have belief that there are no gods. We tend to be accepting of others and their beliefs as long as they don't use their belief to influence law on things we disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321059225' post='2335163']Most Atheists lack a belief in gods, it doesn't mean that we have belief that there are no gods. [/quote] Now this makes me curious. Please delineate between not believing in God and believing there are no gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 It's a negative. You can say 'I don't believe in aliens.' This doesn't mean that you have a strong belief that aliens don't exist. It means that you've come across no reason to develop a belief in extraterrestrials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1320861463' post='2333817'] The Atheist message to the world is tolerance and love. [/quote] Please don't generalise about us. [quote name='musturde' timestamp='1320897853' post='2334149'] This is not true. We cannot define what all atheists believe. It's hard to even define what all Christians believe with one statement and Christianity is an actual religion. Nietzsche, an atheist, wrote about the importance of suffering and how good ultimately comes from it. One can't say that all atheists believe that constant comfort is something one should seek or that suffering is always bad.[/quote] Thank you, I hoped someone would mention what Nietzsche thought about suffering. Edited November 12, 2011 by Kia ora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1321066944' post='2335215'] It's a negative. You can say 'I don't believe in aliens.' This doesn't mean that you have a strong belief that aliens don't exist. It means that you've come across no reason to develop a belief in extraterrestrials. [/quote] But it implies that you believe aliens to not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Not really. When I tell someone I don't believe in aliens, it means that I think reports of alien sightings are mistakes (or even delusions) and that the people who think they saw the aliens are wrong. It also means that I do not think we have any actual evidence of alien life outside our own planet, though of course we are *just* discovering planets around other suns in the past few years, so it's not like we've had much chance to find any. Rather than concluding that aliens do not exist, I merely say that I don't believe in them. I certainly acknowledge the possibility that they are real; it's a great big universe and there's lots of undreamed of things that are quite possible. So, they may very well be out there somewhere. But I don't believe in aliens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321051749' post='2335103'] I don't understand the link between delfishness and suffering. [/quote] Have you ever been to a third world country? Children who have very little and have to care for siblings and see how their parents sacrifice for their education, end up growing into mature very well balanced adults. Children with disabilities or have been maltreated in the West, ie suffered, ditto. Many Western children with a plethora of electronic games, bikes, cars and eat Macca's whenever and have health resulting in great lives, often grow up as immature brats that have no idea on how to conduct relationships. Ie don't know how to love! Generalising of course, there are always exceptions, but you get my drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321051749' post='2335103'] There is no evidence as far as I am aware, hence the requirement of faith. [/quote] My only requirement for faith is that my personal experiences and what is written as historical fact are congruent. In other words faith is not at odds with reason, it depends on it. If we have blind faith, we are then easy prey for evil sects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1321076893' post='2335271'] Not really. When I tell someone I don't believe in aliens, it means that I think reports of alien sightings are mistakes (or even delusions) and that the people who think they saw the aliens are wrong. It also means that I do not think we have any actual evidence of alien life outside our own planet, though of course we are *just* discovering planets around other suns in the past few years, so it's not like we've had much chance to find any. Rather than concluding that aliens do not exist, I merely say that I don't believe in them. I certainly acknowledge the possibility that they are real; it's a great big universe and there's lots of undreamed of things that are quite possible. So, they may very well be out there somewhere. But I don't believe in aliens. [/quote] This is a good post and explains the difference well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1321083376' post='2335316'] My only requirement for faith is that my personal experiences and what is written as historical fact are congruent. In other words faith is not at odds with reason, it depends on it. If we have blind faith, we are then easy prey for evil sects. [/quote] I have not had a personal experience of any god, so to choose a scripture and live my life by it would require blind faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1321068742' post='2335222'] Please don't generalise about us. [/quote] So, if you don't think being an Atheist is about love and tolerance then you don't recognise that we don't have any scripture or teaching that suggests otherwise. We are not taught to believe that it is wrong to be gay and have homosexual intercourse, we are not taught that men should rule over women. We are not taught that people whom believe different to us are wrong and are committing sin by worshipping false gods. In this way, Atheists have the ability to use their own judgement to analyse the world as they see fit. On the most part we take on the golden rule. Don't do to others that which you don't want done to you. We tend to rationalise on things such as homosexual sex and the vast majority of us take the position that it is none of our business to impose restrictions on people whom want to have a physical relationship with a consenting adult of the same gender. The vast majority of us would not want to impose law to outlaw religious freedom. In my experience the vast majority of Atheists are tolerant and loving. If you don't fit this bill, then sure you can still be an Atheist, and sure there are probably others similar to you. But by and large, based on my experiences, I would confidently say that most Atheists are tolerant and loving. Edited November 12, 2011 by stevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I didn't read the whole thread, but I have to say that I find it more difficult to accept suffering without hope than to accept a God who allows suffering (and in Christ, who participates in that suffering with us). If we suffer and there is absolutely no hope or no purpose, then why bother? Why put up with it? There are definitely times when life is really bad and sometimes, it just seems like it would be better to end the suffering than to keep it up. Yet, for the most part, people -even when it's really bad- keep going with hope that it will get better. But if it doesn't mean anything, if there is NO purpose to suffering... why bother to continue suffering? BUT, if there is just some slight chance of suffering being redemptive, of suffering being unitive and purgation, that's where the beauty comes in. It's not like Christians believe in this Big, Distant God Figure staring down at us from Heaven, watching us suffer. We believe that our God came down to earth and [i]suffered with us to the point of the most painful and humiliating death. [/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321090505' post='2335326'] I have not had a personal experience of any god, so to choose a scripture and live my life by it would require blind faith. [/quote] It is very wise to choose atheism in preference to blind faith with the dangers of being led into a false religion. But consider that for example a scientist may spend a substantial part of their life trying to find evidence to support a good theory. Is it wise to keep an open mind and keep alert for the possibility of a faith altering encounter, in preference to assuming atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321091142' post='2335327'] So, if you don't think being an Atheist is about love and tolerance then you don't recognise that we don't have any scripture or teaching that suggests otherwise. We are not taught to believe that it is wrong to be gay and have homosexual intercourse, we are not taught that men should rule over women. We are not taught that people whom believe different to us are wrong and are committing sin by worshipping false gods.[/quote] Theists aren't taught that by virtue of being theists. They only believe in gods. They can also be pro-gay rights, pro-feminism and believe in exactly the same political positions we do. We don't believe in gods. That's it. We can be communists and fascists, racists and xenophobes, pro-life and pro-choice, sexists and homophobes. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1321091142' post='2335327']But by and large, based on my experiences, I would confidently say that most Atheists are tolerant and loving. [/quote] I would say the same for theists. Edited November 13, 2011 by Kia ora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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