Does Celibacy Lead To Homosexual And Pedophile Behavior By Priests?

[Aloysius]

you continue to make assertions WITHOUT EVIDENCE. The statistics show that sexual abuse of children is NOT more prevalent among Catholic Clergy who take a vow of celibacy than among normal laymen who do not take a vow of celibacy. There are not statistics that I have found to adequately differentiate between homosexual underage abuse and heterosexual underage abuse, however it can be pretty well assumed that both do occur (and I'm sure a more thorough search would find some pertinent data).

anyway, the statistics adequately prove that there is NO CORRELATION between Pedophilia and celibacy. NONE. The statistics show that pedophilia is equally or MORE prevalent in other professions as in the Catholic priesthood. and that's lumping in the homosexual ephebophilia, which is more homosexuality than it is pedophilia as it deals with post-pubescent boys and is thus a form of sexual attraction to males (whereas pedophilia deals with pre-pubescent children and is not necessarily correlated with a sexual attraction to either sex; psychologists tell us that one can be heterosexually oriented but if they are a pedophile might be attracted to either male or female children or both).

so, then, the only question that remains is whether celibacy leads to homosexuality. you are actually correct that there is more homosexual abuse than heterosexual abuse (though there are indeed plenty of cases of female abuse, much more than you are leading people to believe), the homosexual abuse is largely not pedophilia, but ephebophilia, and it is specifically related to a homosexual orientation. psychologists who have dealt with offending priests have reported that those who engage in this abuse generally have a homosexual orientation, something which most people report to have at least from the time of their pubescence.

this is not about a born-this-way argument. whether or not the person is "born-this-way", most people who report homosexual orientation report that they have experienced it from a time much earlier than the age they would be entering the seminary (18 is the minimum age in most Western countries such as the US)

the psychologists who have worked with offending priests say that they have homosexual orientations, not prison-type homosexual rape behavior. the difference between celibacy and prison is that in prison there is literally no possible outlet. for a priest, they are perfectly capable of taking off the collar and going out to look for a partner, and this does happen and is dealt with. the only priests who go towards the pedophile outlet are the same types of people who go to the pedophile outlet in other professions (as statistics show), the only priests who go to the homosexual outlet are those who would seek a homosexual outlet outside the Church as well.

there is a problem of homosexuality in the priesthood, a homosexual sub-culture does exist I believe, plenty of horror stories from seminaries in the 70's and 80's especially, but that is because of homosexuals who entered seminaries, not people who entered seminary who became homosexual because of celibacy.

another indication that celibacy is not causing it is that most offenders have offended within their first year after ordination. if celibacy were the cause, one would expect priests to become more and more likely to end up offended as the years of their celibacy wear on; however, if a priest has not offended in the first year after ordination, it is less likely that that priest will end up offending as he continues to live his celibacy. mostly because the psychological condition is NOT caused by celibacy, the psychological condition is generally present PRIOR to entering seminary, something that all psychologists and others who have studied this issue would readily admit.

[musturde]

Very interesting. Thank you for the informative post.

Edited November 6, 2011 by musturde

[AccountDeleted]

Jerry Sandusky, married, former Penn State coach, is in the news right now about his pedophilia and the cover up.
[url="http://news.yahoo.com/child-sex-charges-possible-cover-rock-penn-st-080217588.html"]http://news.yahoo.com/child-sex-charges-possible-cover-rock-penn-st-080217588.html[/url]

So how does this fit in with all the celibacy leads to homosexuality and pedophilia?

[southern california guy]

I have the urge to comment on just one thing.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1320563147' post='2332191']
you continue to make assertions WITHOUT EVIDENCE. The statistics show that sexual abuse of children is NOT more prevalent among Catholic Clergy who take a vow of celibacy than among normal laymen who do not take a vow of celibacy. There are not statistics that I have found to adequately differentiate between homosexual underage abuse and heterosexual underage abuse, however it can be pretty well assumed that both do occur (and I'm sure a more thorough search would find some pertinent data).
[/quote]

You're right I don't have evidence -- at least not evidence to support everything that I'm saying. But I was raised Catholic and I have attended the Catholic church for a number of years -- even if I did take a break and attend Protestant churches for a while. So I'm also referring to observations. From my observations I would say that I've only seen a few Priests who might be homosexual. The others seemed to take too much interest in the young beautiful women in the congregation. They really seemed to enjoy spending time with them. So I question whether "homosexual" Priests amount to more than a third of the total.

Here's a quote I got from Wikipedia (According to Dr Elizabeth Stuart, a former convener of the Catholic Caucus of the Lesbian and Gay Christian movement)

[b]"It has been estimated that at least 33 per cent of all priests in the RC Church in the United States are homosexual."[/b]


That supports my believe that less than half -- probably only a third -- of the Roman Catholic Priests in the United States are homosexual.

Okay, now let's consider that the [i]reported[/i] "sexual abuses" in the Catholic church -- that are compared in percentage to the "sexual abuses" of the overall population -- are sodomy. And let's consider that the Catholic church has argued that the "boys" aren't necessarily that young and it is more homosexual in nature than pedophile.

So if we assume that it is the homosexual Priests who are committing this "abuse" -- then only [b]ONE THIRD[/b] of the Catholic Priests are committing [b]THREE TIMES[/b] as many abuses as the overall population.

If the heterosexual Priests are also committing many heterosexual abuses that aren't being reported -- then the percentage of abuses being committed by the Catholic Priesthood are much higher than the outside population.

If we argue that the heterosexual Priests are also committing sodomy -- then I ask the question again [i] "Is there something about the celibate Priesthood that leads to more than average homosexual (same-sex) behavior?"[/i]

Edited November 6, 2011 by southern california guy

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote]
So if we assume that it is the homosexual Priests who are committing this "abuse" -- then only [b]ONE THIRD[/b] of the Catholic Priests are committing [b]THREE TIMES[/b] as many abuses as the overall population.[/quote]

I don't follow your logic here.


I just read that same wiki article, and would like to point out the end:

Pope Benedict XVI in his book "Light of the World" appears to state that Homosexuality and the Priesthood are completely incompatible "The Congregation for Education issued a decision a few years ago to the effect that homosexual candidates cannot become priests because their sexual orientation estranges them from the proper sense of paternity, from the intrinsic nature of priestly being. The selection of candidates to the priesthood must therefore be very careful. [b]The greatest attention is needed here in order to prevent the intrusion of this kind of ambiguity and to head off a situation where the celibacy of priests would practically end up being identified with the tendency to homosexuality."[/b]

If we're talking about homosexual behavior separate from pedophilic behavior (because they are two completely different things), then to answer your question, the only thing I can practically see about the "celibate priesthood" is not the celibacy but the fact that a collection of men in a seminary together, forming friendships academically and socially and spiritually would be a great source of temptation for a man with homosexual tendancies, if he were not sufficiently sexually, emotionally and spiritually mature. This is one of the reasons why "The Vatican followed up in 2008 with a directive to implement psychological screening for candidates for the priesthood. Conditions listed for exclusion from the priesthood include "uncertain sexual identity" and "deep-seated homosexual tendencies"." (again, quoting from the same article)

It's only in the last 3 years that there has been a real "crackdown" on ensuring mandatory psychological evaluation for candidates to the priesthood. I don't doubt that in the past many men with homosexual tendencies saw the priesthood as a valid alternative. But if someone isn't sufficiently sexually mature, and thus has deep-seated sexual tendencies, I don't see how he's ready for the seminary or the celibate lifestyle, heterosexual or homosexual. It's seems that it'd be "easier" for a man struggling with lust to overcome it in the seminary if he is heterosexual, and nearly impossible if he is homosexual. Celibacy isn't what makes the men act out - the fact that they aren't "mature" enough to handle celibacy in the first place is the problem.

[Socrates]

[color=#000000]I honestly can't follow exactly what SoCal guy is trying to argue here, nor do I have time to read every single post in this thread in detail, but as for the nonsense originally quoted in purple in the OP, I'll just say that it's all entirely the essence of cow - pure, unadulterated the essence of cow. [/color]

Some points (much of which should be obvious, but unfortunately the "celibacy causes child abuse" myth is very prevalent today):

1) There is no actual evidence that celibacy causes pedophilia, homosexuality, or any other sexual disorders (and sorry if the pc bleeding hearts are offended, but, yes, homosexuality is a disorder). Not having sex with women does not cause one to develop sexual attraction to boys in any normal "straight" person. I got married comparatively late, and generally lived a celibate life, postponing sex until marriage. This did not cause me to develop any sort of overwhelming urge to sodomize boys. The article makes assertions, but fails to back them up with anything concrete.

2) Priests do not live in some kind of isolated prison environment in which they are forcibly deprived of any contact with women, and must turn to males instead to satisfy their sexual cravings. The vast majority of priests, if they truly were unable to handle their vows of celibacy, could just as easily find access to girls or women as to boys. (Women outnumber men and boys in your typical parish.) It seems to me that any normal "straight" man unable to control his urges would seek out an affair with a woman long before resorting to shagging the altar boy. I'm sure most men (priests or no) would much prefer to be known as a womanizer than as a child molester.

3) Far from regarding sex between man and women as "evil" and "abhorrent," as the article ignorantly stereotypes, the Church teaches that sex is good, natural, sacred and holy, and this is the reason for its rules regarding human sexuality. The idea that sexual abuse of boys is caused by priests regarding sex with women as being evil and abhorrent (but somehow thinking that same-sex sodomy with boys is more acceptable) is just ridiculous. Anyone able to make it through the seminary should be educated enough to know the Church's basic teachings on sexuality, including its teaching that all sodomy, rape, and homosexual activity is gravely disordered and sinful. In fact, it's popular now to condemn the Church's moral teachings as "homophobic," yet we're supposed to believe same-sex sodomy is popular in the Church due to its alleged hatred of heterosexual intercourse. Again, pure nonsense.

4) I'm definitely not so quick to dismiss the connection between homosexuality and the priestly abuse as many do, as the vast majority of the abuse involved adolescent boys, and 81% of the abuse involved boys rather than girls. Attraction to young adolescent boys is a subset of homosexuality, rather than true pedophilia (attraction to pre-pubescent children). But there is no evidence that celibacy changes normal, heterosexual men into either homosexuals or pedophiles. I think there is a problem with too many people joining the seminary for the wrong reasons, but most of these people were messed up when they entered the seminary, and too many seminaries (but certainly not all) have become havens of homosexuality. I've yet to hear a reliable documented case of the celibate priesthood turning a single "straight" man homosexual or pedophiliac.

The problem is not celibacy, but lack of holiness, and high regard for the priesthood as a high calling, and celibacy as a noble sacrifice for a higher good.

5) If, as the purple nonsense states, homosexuality, pedophilia, and other sexual disorders are the result of "sexual repression," then there should be a drastic decline in these disorders in contemporary times, when "sexual repression" of any kind is so rarely encouraged or practiced, but most live by a hedonistic "if it feels good, do it" ethos. But all evidence seems quite to the contrary.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Socrates

[cooterhein]

Does celibacy lead to homosexual and pedophile behavior by priests?

No, I don't believe there's any legitimate evidence to indicate that it does. However, the celibacy requirement that they have these days (it wasn't always this way, you know) is a bad idea for other reasons. Additionally, these issues among Catholic priests continue to be of grave import- not because a priest is more likely to offend than someone from another group of people (which he most likely is not in any given scenario), but because of the lack of transparency, the lack of accountability, and the opportunity for any offender to do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

[musturde]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320590500' post='2332229']
If we argue that the heterosexual Priests are also committing sodomy -- then I ask the question again [i] "Is there something about the celibate Priesthood that leads to more than average homosexual (same-sex) behavior?"[/i]
[/quote]
I believe that pedophiles would have been inclined to molest kids regardless of if they joined the priesthood or not. One might make the claim the priests who live together might develop homosexual attractions to one another. I've heard there was research done that shows that Muslim women who share the same husband and live together tend become attracted to one another. Also, it's known that Saudi Arabia has a large population of homosexuals. I believe this is because men are rarely allowed to interact with or see other women. If these examples are valid, one might theorize that priests who live together may sometimes be inclined to develop an attraction to the same sex. However, I don't think you can go so far to say that this would be a big cause of homosexuality in the priesthood or that homosexuality itself leads to pedophilia.

Edited November 7, 2011 by musturde

[BigJon16]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320590500' post='2332229']
... then I ask the question again [i] "Is there something about the celibate Priesthood that leads to more than average homosexual (same-sex) behavior?"[/i]
[/quote]

And people on this Phorum have answered "No" again, and again, and again. On top of answering "no" they have given factual and logical evidence supporting their answer.

So now, one has to ask, "Whats your beef, bro?"

Is there something that you are specifically trying to say?

Or, are you just trying to beat the dead horse for the sake of beating the dead horse?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Pax domine Bretheren,sympathiesers and others...
My answer is,the bible says some are born chaste,some become chaste for the kingdom of god and some are made chaste by the world. Possibly those whom where born chaste and venture into homosexuality coz they have absolutely no understanding of who or what a women is (or man for women.) Retards and mongoloids are born to be chaste yet our groups that are meant to look after these people are taking them to prostitutes. But are people born homosexual? No more than people are born with a sexual appetite for animals. So the answer iz no i don't believe peoples are born homo sexual but yes i do believe some people are born to be chaste for life and not just retards and mongoloids but possibly a few able people too. Does choosing to become a politician increase your risk of lying? Does becoming a policeman increase your risk of violently oppressing others because you can ? Does choosing to keep your body toned and taught increase your risk of becomming a porn king or queen? I say NO! I think the world is trying to legitimalise these things thinking that it is the law of love,though these things should not be taboo and we should not stone sinners to death we are not to condone these things as if that is mercy,true mercy is justice as well and saying no i don't agree with that while remaining humble enough to talk more and reveal why and still be willing to except the persons response to your view point whether they except it or not.

God bless you all.
Onward christian souls.
JC "seek and you shall find,knock and the door will be opened." "this is my commandment,to love one another as i have loved you." "those without sin cast the first stone."

O.T. "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

most of us end up chaste eventually if you don't buy into this viagra bulldust, does this increase our risk of being a paedophile, Not all old men are dirty old men.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1320628331' post='2332382']

And people on this Phorum have answered "No" again, and again, and again. On top of answering "no" they have given factual and logical evidence supporting their answer.

So now, one has to ask, "Whats your beef, bro?"

Is there something that you are specifically trying to say?

Or, are you just trying to beat the dead horse for the sake of beating the dead horse?
[/quote]

I started to write something saying that I didn't really know why I posted this but that's not totally honest. Up until about six - seven years ago I had been out of the Catholic church for almost twenty years. But I like the Catholic doctrine far better than any of the Protestant religions. Really there are only two things that make me uncomfortable about the Cathoilc church and those are marriage annulments -- which I see as a cop out support of divorce by the Catholic church so that they don't alienate divorcees and lose them as members, and the celibate vocations -- and the related sodomy problem.

To be honest even if there were not homosexual abuses by the Priests the very fact that they are celibate bothers me. I felt much more comfortable with married Protestant pastors. I don't fully know why. I haven't totally analyzed why I have these feelings. And there doesn't appear to be the same sort of homosexual abuse among the Protestant ministry. Arguably there is some abuse but it tends to be heterosexual -- which again strangely doesn't bother me as much.

So the most obvious conclusion that someone can draw is that the biggest differences between the Catholic religion and the Protestant ones are the celibate orders. So that must somehow be connected with the sodomy problem. And I think that an awful lot of people think the same thing as me but don't want to cause a conflict by saying it -- [i]and they also think that the homosexual pedophile problem in the Catholic church would end if Priests could marry.[/i]

I know that good Catholics aren't supposed to say this but I would even feel better about the Priests if they were married and had kids. I would feel more comfortable with Catholicism overall if there weren't any celibate orders.

It's really weird but since I've started going to Catholic Mass occasionally again (I miss Mass all the time.. ) and have gotten more involved with these forums -- within the last seven years or so -- I have actually dated three different ex-Nuns. And on these forums I've met a number of very personable outgoing women who have become nuns. And at that point I lost contact with them. To be honest I feel sort of sad for them. And a few of them have encouraged me to consider the Catholic priesthood. Which probably got me thinking about this sort of thing. And I've found myself going back in the direction of atheism. To be honest I've become an atheist. I really want to believe in God but I don't. And it's a bit like losing a belief in Santa Claus. There is just no going back.

If there really is no God, unless we call "goodness" God and "evil" the devil, then we still couldn't go wrong by following the philosophy taught of Jesus Christ. But I don't feel the same about celibate Catholic vocations.

Edited November 7, 2011 by southern california guy

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320632696' post='2332407']

I started to write something saying that I didn't really know why I posted this but that's not totally honest. Up until about six - seven years ago I had been out of the Catholic church for almost twenty years. But I like the Catholic doctrine far better than any of the Protestant religions. Really there are only two things that make me uncomfortable about the Cathoilc church and those are marriage annulments -- which I see as a cop out support of divorce by the Catholic church so that they don't alienate divorcees and lose them as members, and the celibate vocations -- and the related sodomy problem.

To be honest even if there were not homosexual abuses by the Priests the very fact that they are celibate bothers me. I felt much more comfortable with married Protestant pastors. I don't fully know why. I haven't totally analyzed why I have these feelings. And there doesn't appear to be the same sort of homosexual abuse among the Protestant ministry. Arguably there is some abuse but it tends to be heterosexual -- which again strangely doesn't bother me as much.

So the most obvious conclusion that someone can draw is that the biggest differences between the Catholic religion and the Protestant ones are the celibate orders. So that must somehow be connected with the sodomy problem. And I think that an awful lot of people think the same thing as me but don't want to cause a conflict by saying it -- [i]and they also think that the homosexual pedophile problem in the Catholic church would end if Priests could marry.[/i]

I know that good Catholics aren't supposed to say this but I would even feel better about the Priests if they were married and had kids. I would feel more comfortable with Catholicism overall if there weren't any celibate orders.

It's really weird but since I've started going to Catholic Mass occasionally again (I miss Mass all the time.. ) and have gotten more involved with these forums -- within the last seven years or so -- I have actually dated three different ex-Nuns. And on these forums I've met a number of very personable outgoing women who have become nuns. And at that point I lost contact with them. To be honest I feel sort of sad for them. And a few of them have encouraged me to consider the Catholic priesthood. Which probably got me thinking about this sort of thing. And I've found myself going back in the direction of atheism. To be honest I've become an atheist. I really want to believe in God but I don't. And it's a bit like losing a belief in Santa Claus. There is just no going back.

If there really is no God, unless we call "goodness" God and "evil" the devil, then we still couldn't go wrong by following the philosophy taught of Jesus Christ. But I don't feel the same about celibate Catholic vocations.
[/quote]


This seems like a pretty honest answer on your part and explains a few things. You are trying to find a religion that 'fits in' with your perception of what a religion should be. You have been 'shopping' for a church that believes what you believe for a long time but haven't found one that meets all your criteria so now you are finding it hard to even believe in God. Somewhere along the line, if you are a sincere seeker, you have to realize that God does not exist to meet your expectations and to do things your way. It seems that the only solution for you is to start your own religion and then make God into your own image. You want o be God, to judge others and to determine what is right and wrong according to your own opinions.

You are not a Catholic. You like some of the things that the Church teaches, but you want the Church to do things your way instead of you doing things her way.

We could debate annulment and celibacy as nauseum, but the fact is that you are not going to be satisfied until you find a Church that has no rules that you disagree with. Good luck in your search.

A little humility however, might be the first step to realising that no Church is going to be perfect and free from all fault, even the Catholic Church.... we are humans, but Christ chose to build His Church upon us frail human beings, using the Apostle who denied Him three times as his 'rock'.

[BigJon16]

It is good to see that the intent was to not beat the dead horse.

Something deeper is happening here.

[Maximilianus]

nm

Edited November 7, 2011 by Maximilianus