Does Celibacy Lead To Homosexual And Pedophile Behavior By Priests?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320517221' post='2331944']

Is this the old stupid "born that way" argument?? Men who have sex with boys or other men are called "homosexuals". Sure I've heard of it being a power trip -- like in prison. But the point still remains the "sexual abuse" in the Catholic church is SODOMY! Almost nothing but sodomy! Why?
[/quote]


[quote name='musturde' timestamp='1320535210' post='2332028']

No, that's not always true. There are straight people who molest little boys as well, this doesn't necessarily make them gay. Please respond to my first post, you'll understand what I'm talking about.
[/quote]


[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320517221' post='2331944']

Is the Catholic priesthood really that attractive to the special group comprised of "homosexual pedophiles"? I like the humanists argument better -- even if I'm not a total fan of "Humanist" psychology.
[/quote]

[quote name='musturde' timestamp='1320535210' post='2332028']

Like I said, respond to my first post before responding to this one.
[/quote]

Okay I will try. I confess that I've gotten things very wrong in the past. Hopefully this isn't one of those cases.

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[quote name='musturde' timestamp='1320511588' post='2331901']
Actually, this reminds me of a chat I had with a very popular priest at my parish. He told me that there were so many gay people in the seminary that heterosexuals were treated like meat. The seminarians would play pranks on him for not being gay (I'm not kidding about this). I've known some gay Catholics and it seems like a very sad situation for them. I think the reason why people think celibacy turns priests gay is because they don't realize that the celibate lifestyle is the only choice for gay devout Catholics. It makes sense that homosexuals who feel like they aren't called to marriage will feel that they are called to the priesthood. This DOES NOT MEAN that the high number of homosexuals in the priesthood (if this is true, at least) is the cause for child abuse. Homosexuality does not cause child abuse. I believe a straight male is just as likely to abuse a child.
[/quote]

I believe this. So what you are saying is that the people preparing to go into the priesthood are[i] already[/i] "homosexuals". And the "only choice" is to be celibate?

Interestingly enough when I lived in Utah I got to know "homosexual" ex-Mormons who had gotten married because they supposed to. They even had kids from the marriage. After the divorce they called themselves "bi-sexual". Which strangely makes some 'devout' homosexuals very angry..The argue that the person is not really homosexual.

You don't think that the "high number of homosexuals in the priesthood is the cause for child abuse"? I see what you're saying. There is no greater percentage of "sexual abuse" in the priesthood than in society overall. However......... Almost [b]ALL[/b] of the abuse within the Catholic priesthood is sodomy. What percentage of the Catholic priests are homosexuals? Definitely not 100 percent. Probably not even 50 percent. But almost all of the abuse is same-sex abuse with underage boys. So that would imply that [b]ALL[/b] of the abusers are "homosexual". The heterosexual abuse is almost zero. This would imply that homosexuals [b]ARE[/b] more likely to abuse a child!



[quote name='musturde' timestamp='1320513675' post='2331923']

Like I noted in my previous post, I don't think the person neccesarily has to be a gay priest to abuse a boy. If you look at ancient writings, you'll find this was very common among heterosexuals as well. If i'm not mistaken, even Socrates had a thing for little boys. I believe a lot of the priesthood may be gay but not because they suddenly turn that way after joining the priesthood.
[/quote]

So you're saying that some of the heterosexual priests also engage in sodomy? Why? Why would "homosexual behavior" (same-sex pedophilia) be attractive to them? Is it something about the nature of living a repressed celibate life style -- without the hope of ever experiencing a marriage and life with a woman?

[AccountDeleted]

If celibacy leads to homosexuality then I should be a homosexual... but I'm not. Stupid premise.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1320540235' post='2332068']
If celibacy leads to homosexuality then I should be a homosexual... but I'm not. Stupid premise.
[/quote]

I'm celibate and I'm not a homosexual either. But within the Catholic church the "sexual abuses" are being committed by the male Priests -- not the Nuns. Is there even a problem with homosexuality among the nuns like there is among the Priests?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320541140' post='2332073']

I'm celibate and I'm not a homosexual either. But within the Catholic church the "sexual abuses" are being committed by the male Priests -- not the Nuns. Is there even a problem with homosexuality among the nuns like there is among the Priests?
[/quote]

The title of your thread is 'Does Celibacy lead to homosexual and pedophile behaviour among priests?'

The answer is 'no'. If celibacy per se led to homosexual or pedophile behaviour then all celibates would be homosexuals and pedophiles (including nuns and single lay celibates).

Sexual abuses are caused by disturbed individuals - in the world and in the Church.

It is a ridiculous premise from start to finish.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320538347' post='2332061']









Okay I will try. I confess that I've gotten things very wrong in the past. Hopefully this isn't one of those cases.

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I believe this. So what you are saying is that the people preparing to go into the priesthood are[i] already[/i] "homosexuals". And the "only choice" is to be celibate?

[/quote]

That is certainly a possibility. I have heard a theory that homosexuals may go into the priesthood because they could "hide" there and not be questioned as to why they are not married. However, if they are engaging in that behavior, they are not living out their vows/sacred promises faithfully.

I know that many seminaries have had a bad rap for not screening out homosexuals from the priesthood; however, I do know of one case that involved someone I graduated from high school with. He went into a college seminary. One Saturday night, he "came out" to someone at a bar. By Monday morning, he was expelled. So, seminaries can only work with the information they have on hand.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1320541997' post='2332077']

The title of your thread is 'Does Celibacy lead to homosexual and pedophile behaviour among priests?'

The answer is 'no'. If celibacy per se led to homosexual or pedophile behaviour then all celibates would be homosexuals and pedophiles (including nuns and single lay celibates).
[/quote]

Then again, if they are committing pedophilia, then they are not living celibacy.

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1320541997' post='2332077']

Sexual abuses are caused by disturbed individuals - in the world and in the Church.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1320541997' post='2332077']
It is a ridiculous premise from start to finish.
[/quote]

But that is one of the criticisms against the Church that people "in the world" argue, so from an apologetics standpoint it should not be dismissed so quickly as ridiculous - we need to be able to confront it headon.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320541140' post='2332073']

I'm celibate and I'm not a homosexual either. But within the Catholic church the "sexual abuses" are being committed by the male Priests -- not the Nuns.
[/quote]

wrong.... unfortunately. in the next door neighboring diocese, the Jesuits and the Diocese are both being sued because of abuse by priests AND nuns.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1320541997' post='2332077']

The title of your thread is 'Does Celibacy lead to homosexual and pedophile behaviour among priests?'

The answer is 'no'. If celibacy per se led to homosexual or pedophile behaviour then all celibates would be homosexuals and pedophiles (including nuns and single lay celibates).
[/quote]

How do you know that women aren't different? Is sodomy a "power" thing? Like in prisons? Maybe it fulfills a need that men have and women don't? Brigham Young once said "A single man over the age of 26 is a menace to society." Maybe there is a little truth to that...

And it's different being celibate outside of the Priesthood. You can date, you can hang out with, kiss, cuddle and hold a woman. A Priest would get in trouble for that sort of thing. He has to repress those urges. Outside of the Priesthood we don't. Yes we've got to watch that we don't go to far -- but you know what I mean.

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1320541997' post='2332077']
Sexual abuses are caused by disturbed individuals - in the world and in the Church.

It is a ridiculous premise from start to finish.
[/quote]

But it's curious that the main "sexual abuse" in the Catholic church is sodomy.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1320544334' post='2332092']

wrong.... unfortunately. in the next door neighboring diocese, the Jesuits and the Diocese are both being sued because of abuse by priests AND nuns.
[/quote]

I've never heard of this. What "abuses" have the nuns comitted?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320544701' post='2332097']

How do you know that women aren't different? Is sodomy a "power" thing? Like in prisons? Maybe it fulfills a need that men have and women don't? Brigham Young once said "A single man over the age of 26 is a menace to society." Maybe there is a little truth to that...

And it's different being celibate outside of the Priesthood. You can date, you can hang out with, kiss, cuddle and hold a woman. A Priest would get in trouble for that sort of thing. He has to repress those urges. Outside of the Priesthood we don't. Yes we've got to watch that we don't go to far -- but you know what I mean.



But it's curious that the main "sexual abuse" in the Catholic church is sodomy.
[/quote]


Forced sodomy is a 'power thing' as is rape - it is not about sex, it is about power and domination. All sexual abuse is about power and domination. This can be done by anyone who is disturbed in this way... men or women, although men seem to have more of a 'power thing' than women, perhaps because traditionally they have had less power than men.

Brigham Young may be speaking for himself, I doubt he speaks for all men.

I am celibate outside the priesthood or convent. I do not 'hang out with, kiss, cuddle and hold' anyone in a sensual or sexual way. I kiss my relatives on the cheek, give a hug to them, cuddle small children and hold babies. I give the kiss of peace to nuns on the cheek - that's it. I think that doing things of a sexual or sensual nature should be in prelude to an intimate physical relationship with one's spouse or intended spouse, not when simply dating. I don't date either by the way.

The main sexual abuse in the Church is sodomy because priests have had more opportunity to be alone with young boys in the past (altar boys). Other sexual abuses have occurred with women and girls, but the opportunites have been rarer so the occasions are less, and also perhaps even reported less because women often feel that they are at fault for 'leading the man on' or their other sexual history will be brought up. In the case of a young boy, no one blames him for what happens so it is easier to report, although as we have seen, the shame is so great that it has taken years to bring it to light.

I think you are being very simplistic in your views here. Sexual abuse is NOT about sex.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320544856' post='2332100']I've never heard of this. What "abuses" have the nuns comitted?[/quote]
sexual, physical, and emotional abuse. not 'abuse'.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1320541140' post='2332073']

I'm celibate and I'm not a homosexual either. But within the Catholic church the "sexual abuses" are being committed by the male Priests -- not the Nuns. Is there even a problem with homosexuality among the nuns like there is among the Priests?
[/quote]


Are you trolling, like some one acting stupid to make people frothing at the mouth mad? Yes there is a problem with abusive nuns too, but again, as many have pointed out statistically Catholic Priests are the safest bunch to be around. You want danger, go to a public staffed by pc slaves.

Also, as a Southern Cali Guy, you might find this article interesting. Be sure to read to the bottum. It helps explain the crisis that went on.

[url="http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/1999/rogers.html"]http://www.culturewa...999/rogers.html[/url]

Edit: I a word.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Theoketos

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Theoketos' timestamp='1320547754' post='2332116']


Are you trolling, like some one acting stupid to make people frothing at the mouth mad? Yes there is a problem with abusive nuns too, but again, as many have pointed out statistically Catholic Priests are the safest bunch to be around. You want danger, go to a public staffed by pc slaves.

Also, as a Southern Cali Guy, you might find this article interesting. Be sure to read to the bottum. It helps explain the crisis that went on.

[url="http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/1999/rogers.html"]http://www.culturewa...999/rogers.html[/url]

Edit: I a word.
[/quote]


Wonderful article - thank you. I do think that the sexual revolution had a lot to do with the priest sex scandals because instead of being seen as something bad, sex started to become something liberating. But I also still believe that most sex abuses are really an abuse of power rather than a purely sexual need. Perhaps the sexual revolution made this form of power seem more acceptable than it otherwise would have been.

I have heard that biological fathers who sexually abuse their daughters often confuse the sex act with love, and they believe they are just 'loving' their daughters more.

We can't discount the presence of evil in all sexual abuse as well. As humans, we have certain weaknesses that the evil one uses to prey upon us. Using psychology to promote this was an amazing tactic on his part.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Theoketos' timestamp='1320547754' post='2332116']


Are you trolling, like some one acting stupid to make people frothing at the mouth mad? Yes there is a problem with abusive nuns too, but again, as many have pointed out statistically Catholic Priests are the safest bunch to be around. You want danger, go to a public staffed by pc slaves.
[/quote]

No, I'm not trolling. I ran across the humanist website and found myself sort of agreeing with the guy. Honestly I'm somewhere in limbo between being religious and an atheist.

And I will step back for a while and let other people add replies without my interference so that other peoples views can be heard. Thank you for the link. It looks like an interesting article but it's going to take me a while to read it.

[musturde]

[quote]
I believe this. So what you are saying is that the people preparing to go into the priesthood are[i] already[/i] "homosexuals". And the "only choice" is to be celibate? [/quote]
That is part of it. I believe many homosexual Catholics may mix up their callings since they're faced with the unfortunate circumstance of not being able to be attracted to the opposite sex (which takes the option of marriage out). I mean a priest told me that straight men were extremely rare in his seminary. Unless his seminary is the only full gay seminary, It leads me to believe that many homosexuals are becoming priests for the reason I stated above. Homosexuality does not lead to pedophilia so I don't mind if much of the priesthood is composed of homosexual males.

[quote]Interestingly enough when I lived in Utah I got to know "homosexual" ex-Mormons who had gotten married because they supposed to. They even had kids from the marriage. After the divorce they called themselves "bi-sexual". Which strangely makes some 'devout' homosexuals very angry..The argue that the person is not really homosexual.[/quote]
It's interesting that in some cultures, many homosexual men will live double lives to please their families. This is the case in Lebanon where gay men will marry women just to fit into society. There's also a lot of cases of gay men marrying Lesbian women.

[quote]You don't think that the "high number of homosexuals in the priesthood is the cause for child abuse"? I see what you're saying. There is no greater percentage of "sexual abuse" in the priesthood than in society overall. However......... Almost [b]ALL[/b] of the abuse within the Catholic priesthood is sodomy. What percentage of the Catholic priests are homosexuals? Definitely not 100 percent. Probably not even 50 percent. But almost all of the abuse is same-sex abuse with underage boys. So that would imply that [b]ALL[/b] of the abusers are "homosexual". The heterosexual abuse is almost zero. This would imply that homosexuals [b]ARE[/b] more likely to abuse a child![/quote] I tend to think that this may be the case simply because there are more little boys around than little girls. I mean, I can also imagine a homosexual pedophile would prefer a male over a female but I still strongly believe that one does not need to be homosexual to molest a boy. In history, it was common for straight men to have relations with younger males. Not to say we're living in those times, but I think there's something else going on in the person's brain altogether if he/she wants to corrupt the innocence of a youth.


[quote]So you're saying that some of the heterosexual priests also engage in sodomy? Why? Why would "homosexual behavior" (same-sex pedophilia) be attractive to them? Is it something about the nature of living a repressed celibate life style -- without the hope of ever experiencing a marriage and life with a woman?
[/quote]
I don't have a clear-cut answer to this question but I think it's more complicated than it appears. It may simply be that the pedophiles happen to be gay but I'm not an expert on human sexuality.

Edited November 6, 2011 by musturde