How Do You Interact With Christians Who Report Something Other Than Ba

[cooterhein]

Edit for the long title: That would be "something other than baptismal regeneration."

More specifically, how's it different when you interact with someone like me on the issue vs. interacting with another Catholic- presumably, a Catholic convert who wasn't baptized as an infant.

A bit of background info on me: I was baptized in the late 90's. You might be wondering how I know that's when I was baptized. The answer is this: I was baptized in the late 90's. Additionally, God regenerated me about 8 years after that. You might be wondering how I know when I was regenerated, and here's the deal: I was regenerated about 8 years after I was baptized. That's the way it happened. This isn't a matter of doctrine or belief or strict adherence to what I was taught in church as a child- as a matter of fact, practically nothing about the sequence adheres to what I was taught to expect. But that is what happened.

So how do you interact with someone like me? Or with someone who reports a time of regeneration that precedes baptism by a good number of years? Or with a Tiber swimmer who, for example, was regenerated while still a Protestant but never baptized until they became Catholic? In what ways do you approach those situations differently, and what advice do you have for Catholic converts that are kind of shy about bringing it up around cradle Catholics?

Edited November 3, 2011 by cooterhein

[CatherineM]

Do you mean regenerated like Dr. Who, or regenerated like born again?

[AccountDeleted]

I don't know what you mean by regenerated so I guess I would interact with you the same way I would anyone else.

[Basilisa Marie]

I'm sorta confused...

But if you're talking about conversion experiences, then that's not a weird concept to Catholics. Infant baptism isn't actually the "normal" way to get baptized - adult baptism is. Most Catholic families just do the "abnormal" way because parents plan to raise their kids Catholic, and why wait? Plus Catholics believe that baptism isn't the only experience of salvation. Conversion is a life-long process full of experiences of grace, of turning back to God and rededicating one's life back to God. God calls us in different ways at different times in our lives. Everyone's faith life is different. So...it doesn't seem like an issue to me.

[homeschoolmom]

I'm not sure what you mean by "interact"...

[cooterhein]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1320368851' post='2331041']
I'm not sure what you mean by "interact"...
[/quote]Well....Catholic teaching indicates that regeneration has an indissoluble connection with baptism. As seen in this link, although it's just a random one of many that could be used. [url="http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9904"]http://www.catholic....iew.php?id=9904[/url] It goes on to say baptism should not be repeated, since a repeated regeneration from God is no less a contradiction than repeated physical birth from a mother. (Submitted for Basilisa Marie). But I'm not primarily concerned with teasing out the distinctions between lifelong experiences of grace and the contradiction of a repeated regeneration, which we do (or at least should) agree on. This is about what happens when you run into the following.

Some Christian- perhaps a Protestant, perhaps even a Catholic- sees this teaching on baptismal regeneration and says "I understand what you are saying, but that is not what happened." How do you interact with this kind of person? Some options: do you express reluctance to believe such a thing could be true? Do you talk about exceptions to the rule as if it's merely a normative means of regeneration and not a guarantee, and if so, what support do you have for doing so? Do you downplay the importance of this doctrine as compared to other doctrines and dogmas, and are you particularly inclined to do so when talking to a convert or a potential convert? These are some possibilities, But it's wide open beyond that as well.

That's what I was trying to indicate by "interaction." The kind of thing where Catholic teaching says "Baptism and regeneration coincide," and then some Christian who was baptized at a relatively late age responds with "In my experience, God actually didn't do it that way." What comes next from your end, and is there any variation depending on what type of Christian you're talking to?

[cooterhein]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1320362554' post='2330981']
Do you mean regenerated like Dr. Who, or regenerated like born again?
[/quote]If we can legitimately work Dr. Who into the discussion, I'm always up for that.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1320375623' post='2331110']
Well....Catholic teaching indicates that regeneration has an indissoluble connection with baptism. As seen in this link, although it's just a random one of many that could be used. [url="http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9904"]http://www.catholic....iew.php?id=9904[/url] It goes on to say baptism should not be repeated, since a repeated regeneration from God is no less a contradiction than repeated physical birth from a mother. (Submitted for Basilisa Marie). But I'm not primarily concerned with teasing out the distinctions between lifelong experiences of grace and the contradiction of a repeated regeneration, which we do (or at least should) agree on. This is about what happens when you run into the following.

Some Christian- perhaps a Protestant, perhaps even a Catholic- sees this teaching on baptismal regeneration and says "I understand what you are saying, but that is not what happened." How do you interact with this kind of person? Some options: do you express reluctance to believe such a thing could be true? Do you talk about exceptions to the rule as if it's merely a normative means of regeneration and not a guarantee, and if so, what support do you have for doing so? Do you downplay the importance of this doctrine as compared to other doctrines and dogmas, and are you particularly inclined to do so when talking to a convert or a potential convert? These are some possibilities, But it's wide open beyond that as well.

That's what I was trying to indicate by "interaction." The kind of thing where Catholic teaching says "Baptism and regeneration coincide," and then some Christian who was baptized at a relatively late age responds with "In my experience, God actually didn't do it that way." What comes next from your end, and is there any variation depending on what type of Christian you're talking to?
[/quote]


Well, if you're talking about the spritual rebirth of baptism, then all I know is that non-Catholics usually go through Confirmation to convert, not another baptism as they have already been 'regenerated' spiritually and this can't be done again (your link explains that). So I don't see what the problem is.

I am a convert who was never baptised in the first place, so I had baptism and confirmation at the same time as an adult. But I didn't have my real 'conversion' until many years later when I had a personal encounter with God. Perhaps my regeneration just took a little longer (the birth was a difficult one) as before that, I was pretty much a 'cafeteria Catholic' taking what I wanted and leaving the rest. Since my second conversion (reconversion, whatever you want to call it), I have understood things that where hidden from me before (the scales have fallen from my eyes!) and I practice the faith 'faithfully' I suppose you could call it. But more than just practicing it, I understand it and love it and chrish it.... whole different kettle of fish to me. I am very grateful for the first step of baptism/confirmation but that meant very little to me until the second step of my own 'road to Damascus' revelation.

I don't know if this is relevant, but that's what I am understanding from what you posted.

[Basilisa Marie]

Ok, after reading your link I'm still a bit confused as to how you're applying regeneration for your purposes.

[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1320360988' post='2330960']
I was baptized in the late 90's. You might be wondering how I know that's when I was baptized. The answer is this: I was baptized in the late 90's. Additionally, God regenerated me about 8 years after that. You might be wondering how I know when I was regenerated, and here's the deal: I was regenerated about 8 years after I was baptized. That's the way it happened.
[/quote]

In some ways it sounds to me like you're separating the effects and/or power of baptism from the act of baptism itself...as in, describing them as happening in a separate time from the sacrament. Would that be an accurate way to explain what you're describing? Maybe I'm just confused by your tautologies.

[cooterhein]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1320377742' post='2331130']
Ok, after reading your link I'm still a bit confused as to how you're applying regeneration for your purposes.



In some ways it sounds to me like you're separating the effects and/or power of baptism from the act of baptism itself...as in, describing them as happening in a separate time from the sacrament. Would that be an accurate way to explain what you're describing? Maybe I'm just confused by your tautologies.
[/quote]The effects and/or power of baptism can be summarized like this: It had the effect of getting me wet, and it happened to be powerful cold. I was baptized in the late 90's. That is not when God regenerated me. He regenerated me about 8 years later.

I'm describing them as happening at completely separate times because that's the way it happened. And the truth is, that's usually how it goes down with folks that aren't baptized as infants. This includes many converts to Catholicism, although they tend to be a little uncomfortable with talking to other Catholics about it.

Edit- maybe not uncomfortable in every situation, but it's not the kind of thing a Catholic convert will typically bring up on their own.

Edited November 4, 2011 by cooterhein

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1320450282' post='2331472']
The effects and/or power of baptism can be summarized like this: It had the effect of getting me wet, and it happened to be powerful cold. I was baptized in the late 90's. That is not when God regenerated me. He regenerated me about 8 years later.

I'm describing them as happening at completely separate times because that's the way it happened. And the truth is, that's usually how it goes down with folks that aren't baptized as infants. This includes many converts to Catholicism, although they tend to be a little uncomfortable with talking to other Catholics about it.

Edit- maybe not uncomfortable in every situation, but it's not the kind of thing a Catholic convert will typically bring up on their own.
[/quote]


Actually, not only do I not feel uncomfortable discussing it, I often bring it up in appropriate conversations as it was amazing for me. The thing is that I don't use the same words as you do, and I don't discount that baptism was also an experience, although perhaps not in the same way. Baptism was the beginning of the conversion experience for me, and it put the indelible mark on my soul that made me belong to Jesus. It just wasn't until years later that this reality came to into my conscious mind, and it occured after I had invited Jesus to do it for me.

When I recall my baptism, it was such a significant time - a Christmas Midnight Mass with a full church, my family (agnostics) in attendance, the prelude in the sacristy before Mass when the priest annointed me and asked if I renounced Satan and a lot of things that he said we could do before the Mass. Then Mass itself and being baptised with the water, and getting the candle -- all of it. some of it is a blur in my head because it was all too significant for me to take it all in. The priest announcing to everyone that I wanted to be a nun... all this happened long before I had a truly personal experience of God, and learned to love Jesus. And perhaps that is why I was never able to fulfill my dream of wanting to be a nun - the real inner conversion hadn't caught up with the actual baptism and acceptance by God.

I think the actual 'regeneration' happens at baptism - because that's God puts the indeliable mark on our soul, but sometimes it takes a while for us to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually 'catch up' with what has happened on a deep spiritual level. And for those who are baptised as babies, perhaps they might 'feel' more at confirmation, but then perhaps not. It isn't about 'feeling' anyway - that is a great thing to experience, but even if a person never has the affective confirmation through some kind of sensed feeling, the reality is that God has taken possession of our soul at baptism and cleansed us of all sin... then it's up to us to keep it that way through the Sacraments.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1320450282' post='2331472']
The effects and/or power of baptism can be summarized like this: It had the effect of getting me wet, and it happened to be powerful cold. I was baptized in the late 90's. That is not when God regenerated me. He regenerated me about 8 years later.

I'm describing them as happening at completely separate times because that's the way it happened. And the truth is, that's usually how it goes down with folks that aren't baptized as infants. This includes many converts to Catholicism, although they tend to be a little uncomfortable with talking to other Catholics about it.

Edit- maybe not uncomfortable in every situation, but it's not the kind of thing a Catholic convert will typically bring up on their own.
[/quote]

Right. So for you, your experience of salvation happened separate from baptism. I actually think that's pretty common. I was baptized as an infant, but didn't really have an experience of grace similar to what you're talking about until 14 years later. I've also sponsored a couple of people through RCIA, and sometimes baptism is a super powerful experience, other times it's not so much.


[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1320451197' post='2331488']
I think the actual 'regeneration' happens at baptism - because that's God puts the indeliable mark on our soul, but sometimes it takes a while for us to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually 'catch up' with what has happened on a deep spiritual level. And for those who are baptised as babies, perhaps they might 'feel' more at confirmation, but then perhaps not. It isn't about 'feeling' anyway - that is a great thing to experience, but even if a person never has the affective confirmation through some kind of sensed feeling, the reality is that God has taken possession of our soul at baptism and cleansed us of all sin... then it's up to us to keep it that way through the Sacraments.
[/quote]

^ That's what I'd say to a person such as yourself. Sacraments dispense the sanctifying grace. We sometimes (okay, usually) need some time (years) to catch up to it in our relationship with God. So Catholic theology would say that you were regenerated at baptism, but possibly didn't fully embrace that grace until years later.

[cooterhein]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1320451197' post='2331488']Actually, not only do I not feel uncomfortable discussing it, I often bring it up in appropriate conversations as it was amazing for me. The thing is that I don't use the same words as you do, and I don't discount that baptism was also an experience, although perhaps not in the same way.[/quote]The word I want to use is "regeneration." Is there any reason why you'd be unwilling to use the word "regeneration" when discussing the timing of regeneration, specifically when addressing the doctrine of baptismal regeneration?

Just to clarify, an emotional experience of some variety is not necessarily equivalent to "regeneration." Regeneration is something that God does. It keys in on that one specific time when God regenerated you. It may or may not produce a strong emotional effect; it doesn't really matter. What does matter is what God did- and when He did it. As for the "what," that would be "regeneration." As for the "when," that would be baptism....maybe....question mark? Unless that isn't when He does it. That happens sometimes, too.

In my personal experience, God did not regenerate me when I was baptized. I don't want to discount the special-ness or the emotional stimulation or the sense of awe and reverence that you felt when you were baptized, because I'm sure it was a very important time in your life. Important as it was, though, it was either a time when God regenerated you or it wasn't. In either case, the emotions must have been amazing. But were the emotions accompanied by an act of God where He regenerated you, or did you have an emotional experience with no regeneration? To me, that seems like the central issue in this question of baptismal regeneration.

Apologies if you don't like using the word regeneration. I don't know why other options would be better, though. I'm trying to be as direct as possible.

[quote]Baptism was the beginning of the conversion experience for me, and it put the indelible mark on my soul that made me belong to Jesus. It just wasn't until years later that this reality came to into my conscious mind, and it occured after I had invited Jesus to do it for me.[/quote]So you got a mark on your soul. That is interesting. Is that the same thing as regeneration? If it is, I'm not familiar with that understanding of regeneration. Also- this might be important- how did you learn that you got this mark on your soul? Is it a reality-based assessment, or is it more of a faith-based belief? And perhaps most importantly- did the Holy Spirit begin indwelling you when you were baptized, or did He take up residence at some other time?

[quote]When I recall my baptism, it was such a significant time - a Christmas Midnight Mass with a full church, my family (agnostics) in attendance, the prelude in the sacristy before Mass when the priest annointed me and asked if I renounced Satan and a lot of things that he said we could do before the Mass. Then Mass itself and being baptised with the water, and getting the candle -- all of it. some of it is a blur in my head because it was all too significant for me to take it all in. The priest announcing to everyone that I wanted to be a nun... all this happened long before I had a truly personal experience of God, and learned to love Jesus. And perhaps that is why I was never able to fulfill my dream of wanting to be a nun - the real inner conversion hadn't caught up with the actual baptism and acceptance by God.[/quote]That all sounds very special. And it's not every person that's cut out to be a nun. It's not for everyone.

[quote]I think the actual 'regeneration' happens at baptism - because that's God puts the indeliable mark on our soul, but sometimes it takes a while for us to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually 'catch up' with what has happened on a deep spiritual level.[/quote]Can you give me a little more detail about what you definition of "regeneration" is? And it might be necessary to cite some Church documents in support of it. Hope you don't mind.

[quote]And for those who are baptised as babies, perhaps they might 'feel' more at confirmation, but then perhaps not. It isn't about 'feeling' anyway - that is a great thing to experience, but even if a person never has the affective confirmation through some kind of sensed feeling, the reality is that God has taken possession of our soul at baptism and cleansed us of all sin... then it's up to us to keep it that way through the Sacraments.[/quote]I agree that it's not about emotion and it is all about what God does. Specifically, it's about whether or not God regenerates you- and if He does, when exactly does He do it? We have obvious disagreement about what else God is obliged to do in concert with other sacraments at other times, but let's stay on baptism.

[vee]

I punch them in the face POW

Edited November 5, 2011 by vee8

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1320455735' post='2331551']
The word I want to use is "regeneration." Is there any reason why you'd be unwilling to use the word "regeneration" when discussing the timing of regeneration, specifically when addressing the doctrine of baptismal regeneration?

Just to clarify, an emotional experience of some variety is not necessarily equivalent to "regeneration." Regeneration is something that God does. It keys in on that one specific time when God regenerated you. It may or may not produce a strong emotional effect; it doesn't really matter. What does matter is what God did- and when He did it. As for the "what," that would be "regeneration." As for the "when," that would be baptism....maybe....question mark? Unless that isn't when He does it. That happens sometimes, too.

In my personal experience, God did not regenerate me when I was baptized. I don't want to discount the special-ness or the emotional stimulation or the sense of awe and reverence that you felt when you were baptized, because I'm sure it was a very important time in your life. Important as it was, though, it was either a time when God regenerated you or it wasn't. In either case, the emotions must have been amazing. But were the emotions accompanied by an act of God where He regenerated you, or did you have an emotional experience with no regeneration? To me, that seems like the central issue in this question of baptismal regeneration.

Apologies if you don't like using the word regeneration. I don't know why other options would be better, though. I'm trying to be as direct as possible.

So you got a mark on your soul. That is interesting. Is that the same thing as regeneration? If it is, I'm not familiar with that understanding of regeneration. Also- this might be important- how did you learn that you got this mark on your soul? Is it a reality-based assessment, or is it more of a faith-based belief? And perhaps most importantly- did the Holy Spirit begin indwelling you when you were baptized, or did He take up residence at some other time?

That all sounds very special. And it's not every person that's cut out to be a nun. It's not for everyone.

Can you give me a little more detail about what you definition of "regeneration" is? And it might be necessary to cite some Church documents in support of it. Hope you don't mind.

I agree that it's not about emotion and it is all about what God does. Specifically, it's about whether or not God regenerates you- and if He does, when exactly does He do it? We have obvious disagreement about what else God is obliged to do in concert with other sacraments at other times, but let's stay on baptism.
[/quote]


I guess I don't really understand what you mean by regeneration so it's hard to use a word that means something different to each of us. I don't use the word because I don't think we mean the same thing when we use it. The Catholic faith has its own words for spiritual experiences that may not coincide or mean the same things as your choice of words. Yes, according to the teachings of the Catholic faith, the soul does get a special imprint (or mark or seal) at the time of baptism. In fact there are a limited number of times this occurs. If you care enough to learn more about the Catholic point of view, there are many articles online if you google baptism soul seal or something similar.

Here is just one example:

[quote]
Last Sunday we celebrated the baptism of Jesus and [url="http://www.frtommylane.com/homilies/years_abc/baptism_of_our_lord-4.htm"]we reflected on everything we do in the Church because of Jesus[/url]. The sacraments come from Jesus. We are baptized because Jesus was baptized and commanded that all be baptized. The Gospel today allows us to continue to reflect on the Sacrament of Baptism. In the Gospel today John said he came baptizing with water (1:31) but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit (John 1:33). So there is a huge difference between the baptism offered by John and the baptism offered by Jesus. John’s baptism was a sign of repentance, turning from sin back to God again. But John’s baptism did not bring about a change in the person by itself, although it was a sign of the person’s desire to leave sin. On the other hand the baptism of Jesus gives the Holy Spirit. When we are baptized we are profoundly changed. The change is so great that the quality of our soul is transformed. Baptism is not just something external, not just a certificate we receive on paper, but [url="http://www.frtommylane.com/homilies/years_abc/baptism_of_our_lord-2.htm#conformed_to_christ"]we are profoundly changed in our soul[/url]. That is why baptism is received only once because it leaves a mark forever on our soul. We often call that mark a seal. (Theologians call this an ontological change.) Baptism puts a seal on our souls. This is why baptism is the first sacrament we receive. Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders are the three sacraments that seal our souls forever, changing them forever, which is why we receive them only once.
The reason why [url="http://www.frtommylane.com/homilies/years_abc/baptism_of_our_lord-2.htm#conformed_to_christ"]the quality of our soul is changed at baptism[/url] is because Jesus’ baptism is baptism with the Holy Spirit while John’s baptism was only water baptism and did not give the Holy Spirit. When Jesus was baptized he received an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove coming down and resting on him (John 1:32). This also shows the profound difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus. [/quote]

The other times that the soul receives a special mark or seal are:

[size=4][color=#000080]Three sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders, are given once, as they render a permanent seal or character upon one's soul (2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 4:30, Revelations 7:3). [/color][/size]

You say that you were not regenerated at baptism. I don't know what you mean by that - you were certainly marked with the seal of God on this day, whether you are aware of it or not (if it was a valid baptism). What you experience as 'regeneration' may not be something that the Catholic church recognises if you are dissociating it from the Sacraments. This is how the Church views the Sacraments:

[quote]
[size=4][color=#000080]The sacraments were instituted by Christ and were part of the Liturgical [/color][/size]<a href="http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Tradition.html">[size=4]Tradition[/size][size=4][color=#000080] of the early Christian Church. The Church celebrates in her liturgy the Paschal [i]mystery[/i] of Christ, his Sacrifice on the Cross, Death and Resurrection. The Greek word [i]μυστήριον[/i] or [i]mystery[/i] in the Greek New Testament is translated into [i]sacramentum[/i] in the Latin Vulgate Bible, from which we derive our English word [i]sacrament[/i] (examples: Ephesians 1:9, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:27). The saving effects of Christ's Redemption on the Cross are communicated through the sacraments, especially in the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist. The sacraments to this day are called [i]mysteries[/i] in the Eastern Churches.[/color][/size]

[size=4][color=#000080]Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, as well as Eastern Orthodox Churches all recognize the seven sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony. The three sacraments of Christian Initiation are Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist. The two sacraments of Healing are Penance and the Anointing of the Sick, and the two sacraments of Vocation are Holy Orders and Marriage. Three sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders, are given once, as they render a permanent seal or character upon one's soul (2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 4:30, Revelations 7:3). [/color][/size]

[/quote]

As far as I am concerned, whether I was aware of it consciously or not, at my baptism, I was 'regenerated' in the context that my soul was wiped clean of sin and I had a spiritual rebirth into Christ. I don't know what you mean by the word regeneration however unless you would care to try to describe your meaning more fully to us.