Spiritualities That Repell!

[brandelynmarie]

[quote name='marigold' timestamp='1319999551' post='2329003']
Following this thread with interest...
[/quote]


Me too. I am not sure how I would respond yet...

[Aya Sophia]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1319998698' post='2328998']
What repels me are spiritualities of pride and disobedience.
[/quote]

A prideful, disobedient spirituality - can there be such a thing? Meaning, is it even a "spirituality" if it's prideful and disobedient?

[MarysLittleFlower]

Interesting thread...

I have never been repelled by corporal mortification though I dont know why, maybe it's because of the Saints like St Rose of Lima who I've always liked..however I feel that I am not holy and humble enough to ever do anything like that myself unless ordered to under obedience.

I don't think I am repelled by any Catholic spirituality, however the way that it's sometimes practiced.. for example, I am drawn to more traditional practices, liturgy, etc... whenever a Catholic spirituality becomes more modernized, or secularized so that it seems to only be about community or "self realization" etc, - I find that very off putting. I sometimes feel similarly about a lot of lay involvement in the liturgy. However, one danger of this is that sometimes there's a temptation to pride or being judgemental... so I think though it's fine to have preferences, and though I have reasons for preferring traditional practices, it's good to be careful about judging others or having less charity towards them as a result. We can evaluate practices, but with people it's better to simply focus on loving them. But I do have a difficult time with anything liberalized/modernized/etc.

Edited October 30, 2011 by MarysLittleFlower

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

I don't know if any have actually repelled me, so to speak, but there are several I have never felt any connection with whatsoever. At first I liked this order of active Franciscans, but gave that up when I felt called to the cloister. I have never felt much a connection with the Franciscans after that, and not really one with the Benedictines either. Oh, I think I remembered one that repelled me: The Sisters of Perpetual Adoration, I don't know why, but that's the way it is.

[BarbTherese]

For me the past spiritualite reflected their times - and life and living were harsh in those times and at times extremely harsh. Penances tended to follow in like manner - and the more extreme the penance, the more'holy' it was felt to be. This is one of the reasons why I appreciate Vatican2 and the changes that have come about in religious life because of these changes. In previous times, the world and the body were to be despised.
Now we know that God cannot create what is to be despised - what He has created is holy and to be respected and loved and most certainly for its potential and for the fact that God sustains in existence all that does exist.

[bmb144]

I'm glad that the topic has been enjoyed by some of you.

Vee8- could you clarify your meaning please? *curious look*

[organwerke]

Well I've changed my "tastes" several times during the years...
First of all I would distinguish between the spiritualities that attracts me simply for my personal daily prayer life (readings, prayers, movies etc.) and those I would really live.
For example I love very much Carmelite spirituality and saints and authors and I use them a lot in my spiritual life but I wouldn't see myself as a Carmelite in my real life.
I don't know if there are spiritualities that repel me (well, certainly there are, but I can't think of them clearly at this moment) but for example, even if I like Franciscan friars, priests and sisters, I've never loved very much Franciscan's spiritaulity.
It is also to be said that sometimes the same order may include realities that live the spirituality in very different ways.
For example I love The Benedectine spirituality the most, but at the same time there are some Benedectine Communities or reformations that repel me (for example I don't like Charles de Faucauld's charism).
So it is not an easy question even if it is very interesting.

[AccountDeleted]

I think you're right organwerke, I have changed my attractions over the years too, and what once appealed to me might now cause me to feel uncomfortable. That's probably only natural as we grow and mature in our discernment and also in our experiences.

I do think that the things that repell us are good because they help guide us to the things that attract us.

[MarysLittleFlower]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1320010141' post='2329065']
For me the past spiritualite reflected their times - and life and living were harsh in those times and at times extremely harsh. Penances tended to follow in like manner - and the more extreme the penance, the more'holy' it was felt to be. This is one of the reasons why I appreciate Vatican2 and the changes that have come about in religious life because of these changes. In previous times, the world and the body were to be despised.
Now we know that God cannot create what is to be despised - what He has created is holy and to be respected and loved and most certainly for its potential and for the fact that God sustains in existence all that does exist.
[/quote]
BarbaraTherese, not to debate but I think that penance is still relevant though... I dont think that the Saints did penance because they believed that God's creation is evil, that would be Gnosticism they were trying to fight sin or to share in Christ's suffering. Even then, there was still the concept that penances should not be done in excess and only under spiritual direction. For example the spiritual director of St Rose of Lima eventually didn't allow her to use the discipline beyond a certain number of times, and put other restrictions on this as well. If penance simply causes discomfort that is okay, it seems the problem is when it's done in excess so that it disfigures/mutilates the body or ruins the person's health. St Frances of Rome did great penances but her Guardian Angel told her that the spirit was not meant to ruin the body. However, there are penances that simply cause discomfort. There are also Saints who have had the stigmata, and this was something they were given and it was allowed by God. Here's a good article [url="http://www.religious-vocation.com/redemptive_suffering.html"]http://www.religious..._suffering.html[/url] and [url="http://www.religious-vocation.com/penance_and_mortification.html"]http://www.religious...tification.html[/url] many of these Saints had visions of Jesus, or Mary, or the Saints, Angels, - but were not told that penance in itself is wrong (when done appropriately). I think it's important that they did this for love of God, not out of fear or guilt or hatred for God's creation (which would be wrong). It's kind of complicated which is why it's important to have a good spiritual director.

Our Lady of Fatima said, to do penance for sinners.. I don't believe that VII changed this there are still religious orders that do corporal mortification, of course not to excess.

God bless

Edited October 31, 2011 by MarysLittleFlower

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='MarysLittleFlower' timestamp='1320068058' post='2329325']
BarbaraTherese, not to debate but I think that penance is still relevant though... I dont think that the Saints did penance because they believed that God's creation is evil, that would be Gnosticism they were trying to fight sin or to share in Christ's suffering. Even then, there was still the concept that penances should not be done in excess and only under spiritual direction. For example the spiritual director of St Rose of Lima eventually didn't allow her to use the discipline beyond a certain number of times, and put other restrictions on this as well. If penance simply causes discomfort that is okay, it seems the problem is when it's done in excess so that it disfigures/mutilates the body or ruins the person's health. St Frances of Rome did great penances but her Guardian Angel told her that the spirit was not meant to ruin the body. However, there are penances that simply cause discomfort. There are also Saints who have had the stigmata, and this was something they were given and it was allowed by God. Here's a good article [url="http://www.religious-vocation.com/redemptive_suffering.html"]http://www.religious..._suffering.html[/url] and [url="http://www.religious-vocation.com/penance_and_mortification.html"]http://www.religious...tification.html[/url] many of these Saints had visions of Jesus, or Mary, or the Saints, Angels, - but were not told that penance in itself is wrong (when done appropriately). I think it's important that they did this for love of God, not out of fear or guilt or hatred for God's creation (which would be wrong). It's kind of complicated which is why it's important to have a good spiritual director.

Our Lady of Fatima said, to do penance for sinners.. I don't believe that VII changed this there are still religious orders that do corporal mortification, of course not to excess.

God bless
[/quote]


Actually that is what concerned me at one convent.... that they felt penance was irrelevant because they considered the life to be a penance. I didn't see things that way andI do believe that penance is necessary, but when appropriate and under direction.

As for the whole pre Vat 2 thing - there are convents today that treat their members badly, or at least allow such treatment to occur. I don't hold the whole spirituality or even the whole community to fault for an individual or two but I do think that the superior holds the ultimate responsibility for any abuses committed within the community, as she is the only one who can actually do anything about stopping it. And if she is the one abusing her power, well then, bad news. But this is a very human thing, not a pre Vat 2 or post Vat 2 occurrence.

I know that this such abuse was considered more acceptable pre Vat 2, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't still occur - it has just gone underground and no one wants to talk about it.

[TIWW]

I have always had difficulty with the idea that somehow self- denial, abnegation, mortification and suffering brings us closer to God, or that we might find ourselves in a higher place in heaven. Carmelites, in particular seem to place more emphasis on this kind of “spirituality.” Obviously, this life has meaning. It has given us some amazing Saints. I can not say that the Carmelite life really repels me, but I can admit I do not understand it, in light of the Gospel. The silence, time for contemplation and simplicity of the life is most appealing. Thankfully, if we have a vocation, we are called by God to live a life pleasing to Him, and fulfilling to us as His daughters.
“I have come that you might have LIFE, and have it more abundantly.”
The two great Commandments:
1 Love the Lord Thy God with your whole heart, mind, your whole soul and strength.
2 Love your neighbor as yourself.
We must be able to love who we are before God, before we can, with our whole beings love others. Out of the realization that we are imbued with the Divine, allows that love to radiate to others.

Edited November 1, 2011 by TIWW

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TIWW' timestamp='1320110527' post='2329605']
I have always had difficulty with the idea that somehow self- denial, abnegation, mortification and suffering brings us closer to God, or that we might find ourselves in a higher place in heaven. Carmelites, in particular seem to place more emphasis on this kind of “spirituality.” Obviously, this life has meaning. It has given us some amazing Saints. I can not say that the Carmelite life really repels me, but I can admit I do not understand it, in light of the Gospel. The silence, time for contemplation and simplicity of the life is most appealing. Thankfully, if we have a vocation, we are called by God to live a life pleasing to Him, and fulfilling to us as His daughters.
“I have com that you might have LIFE, and have it more abundantly.”
The two great Commandments:
1 Love the Lord Thy God with your whole heart, mind, your whole soul and strength.
2 Love your neighbor as yourself.
We must be able to love who we are before God, before we can, with our whole beings love others. Out of the realization that we are imbued with the Divine, allows that love to radiate to others.
[/quote]


I understand your reservations. Traditionally the Poor Clares were more penitential than the Carmelites, so it is interesting that over the years their focus has changed so much, although once again, each community is different.

I understand penance and embrace it, but I don't believe it should be the focus of the spiritual life. St John of the Cross did personally embrace physical penance while writing that it should not overdone! And although he talked about the Dark Night of the Soul and the spiritual desert, to my mind, some Carmels focus more on this period of his life than on his final works, especially the Living Flame of Love! I think we all go through spiritual growth (St John talks about the different stages) and if one is 'stuck' in a stage of aridity and penances, then I think it might be difficult to move onto a consummation of the passionate love of God for the soul. Penances and austerities are tools along the way, and a means of making reparation for sin, but they are not the goal and should not (IMO) be the focus of religious life. When one sees a sign pointing the way, one does not sit under the sign thinking one has reached the destination!

[vee]

Im thinking along the lines of various orders that call themselves ___ but have gone on to do things that are far from their rule. Things that have necessitated Vatican investigations etc. To me those people arent following the spirituality of St Dominic, St Benedict or whoever, they are following their pride they are being disobedient.

Edited November 1, 2011 by vee8

[vee]

A spirit of pride and disobedience has been around from day one as well. We cannot serve both God and Mammon so we are either serving one or the other. To serve Mammon would be a prideful disobedient spirituality.

[dominicansoul]

yeah, the evil spirituality of disobedience really really really turned me off during my discernment journey... afer meeting some orders that were way off from what their original founders desired, and also, not in line with the magisterium, i decided to avoid those communities like the plague...