Spiritualities That Repell!

[bmb144]

This jumped into my head last night, so I thought I'd post and see what others think.

In my opinion, part of the process of discerning is finding a spiritually that resonates with ones soul.

For me and this is no disrespect to those here that follow them but the Carmelites and the Franciscans [u][b]really [/b][/u]repelled me when I first started out on this path. Years later, I have come to understand why Carmel annoys the heck out of me but I am still trying to figure out why the Franciscan side of things make my teeth itch.

So, the question I would like to ask is have any of you found a spirituality that really repelled you?

[AccountDeleted]

What an interesting topic! I need to ponder on this a bit more before replying as I don't have a lot of time right now.... but will get back to this. From the title, I thought it was about things like New Age spirituality, other religions etc... so was really surprised to see it is about spiritualities within the Church!! Radical idea!

[bmb144]

thanks Nunsense. It will be interesting to see who says what.

[AccountDeleted]

Okay - I'm back. I haven't had a lot of time to think about it - but off the cuff I think that it is not a particular spirituality that repels me, so much as it is the way that a particular spirituality is interpreted or carried out. Even in the Carmelite spirituality, which I love, I have come across different ways that individuals (from nuns in communities where I have lived to some of the saints) have interpreted and/or practised their understanding of the Carmelite spirituality. I am not going to detail all of these right now but perhaps as this thread develops I might add some more thoughts.

One spirituality that I initially questioned was that of the Visitation - as practised by St Mary Margaret Alacoque. I have read several different books about her (and her diary) and some of the things she did bordered on the psychotic in my opinion. I know that the Church has recognised her sanctity, but I don't think that they necessarily endorse all of her penitential acts for the faithful to emulate. Her times were different than ours however, and probably considered acceptable in her day (at least more than they would be today). The Visitation spirituality on the whole however, as presented by St Francis de Sales, is not repellent to me, quite the opposite in fact.

In the Carmelite spirituality, even St John of the Cross practised mortifications of the flesh that some might consider questionable now... and indeed he was one of the opponents of the 'penance of beasts' and yet he subjected himself to them. Another very holy person was St John Alcantara, much admired by St Teresa of Avila, but again his penances seemed to be a little over the top today.

I am a person who likes the symbolism of penitential acts, but not necessary the physical manifestation of them if carried to excess. When I was at one Carmel, I was perfectly happy to use the discipline, as it was more of a symbolic act than a physical one to me and I certainly did not use it to excess. On the other hand, I found the way that they performed this penance together in choir in the dark on a certain location to be quite bizarre and not at all the way that I imagined one would use the discipline. When I first entered that community was told never to tell anyone about our penances there as they were private. I respected this while I was living with them and did not discuss our penances with my family or friends, but not being a member of the community any more, I no longer feel held to this condition of secrecy. And indeed, I now wonder if the condition of secrecy wasn't applied because they, too, know that some of the penances are unusual to say the least and perhaps even bordering on 'cult-like' in their application. I know that the Opus Dei has faced similar charges with their penances, so I leave judgement of these to the Church hierarchy (although I doubt that even the Visitator knows of all of them). I know that in the case of penances, much of this also depends on the individual and their own interpretation/application of them. I would hope that those who are emotionally fragile would be monitored carefully in their use and would only do them under guidance and direction from their superior or director.

On the other hand, I have seen Carmelite spirituality diluted to the point of becoming almost secular. In some communities, not only have even simple penances been almost completely abolished, but they are also considered to be psychologically detrimental to the individual. I was told at one Carmel that the life itself was enough of penance so we didn't need to add to this by doing other penances. The whole focus was what they called 'self-individuation' where each sister was completely fulfilled as an individual. Sounds good, doesn't it? But what's been left out? Where's God in all this self? I felt God was supposed to be serving us at that Carmel, not the other way around.

With Benedictines, I know that I was repelled by the way some individuals seemed to defy the Vatican's wishes, and this caused me to feel like avoiding Benedictines overall, even though my first SD was a Benedictine and a very holy one too! Now that I am discerning Benedictine spirituality, I can see where each individual's gifts could be offered to God differently than in Carmel, while still being obedient to the superior and to the Holy See. I am growing to love the Benedictine view of monastic life and it is very different than the Carmelite one, although of course all religious life has similarities.

So, what I am saying is that for every community of a particular spirituality, there may be ways of interpreting and carry out the charism of the founder/foundress that could repel someone. And within each community, there may be individuals who live that spirituality in a way (or ways) that the founder did not intend.

So rather than just say in a blanket way that this spirituality or that repels me, I have to analyse and examine what it is within that particular spirituality that repels me, and ask myself also, if that is what the founder intended when they started their community.


There is also much in each spirituality that attracts me too - I love the Dominican love of study, the Franciscan love of poverty and simplicity, the Carmelite love of contemplative prayer, the Benedictine love of the Divine Office... and so much more. As my personal experiences have been limited to a few different spiritualities, I can't speak on the others except from my own reading. For example, I admire the Salesians who work with the young, but have never been called to this spirituality. One of the things I found hard when living with Rosalind Moss (now Mother Miriam) was that she wanted to found her commmunity on the spirituality of St Francis de Sales. The ironic thing is that now she is following the Benedictine Rule, as I hope to some day too! That makes me laugh a lot. One day she and I might both be wearing the same habit! You gotta laugh at God's little jokes. We both end up at a similar point through different paths. But then she also wants an active apostolate and I want a cloistered one.

Perhaps that is one thing that does repel me now, although once upon a time I thought I wanted to be a MC. The ide of an active apostolate 'repels' me now (although perhaps this is too harsh a word for stating that I have no attraction to it). I can see it's beauty, but I feel I have lived my active apostolate already and now want to live a more contemplative one.

Hope I didn't go on too long. I just found this to be an interesting idea - as long as we don't dwell on the negative but use it to find out what we like as well.

[cmaD2006]

Spiritualities that I do not feel an affinity to -- Carmelite, Benedictine (although I love St. Benedict), Mother Teresa's order

Spiritualities that I have an affinity to -- Franciscan, Ignatian (although St. Ignatian did not want to found a women's branch I still ***love*** the Spiritual Exercises).

Spiritualities that I have a bit of an affinity to: Dominican.

I like the notion of the contemplative in action -- I am definitely called to apostolic service vs. contemplative (i.e. cloistered). HOWEVER from the last community I was with I did like a balance between the two. Contemplative and Apostolic. Mary and Martha in one. It is hard to have a proper balance and I thing each community will lean towards one or the other ... but I have seen communities where the prayer isn't evident at all. BUT then again I read that Jesuits pray the office on their own.

Good topic!

[OnlySunshine]

Very interesting topic! I know that I was initially VERY repelled by the Benedictine spirituality. I couldn't pinpoint why, but, over time, it became clear that the reason why I disliked it is because it seemed like most of the dissenting Sisters came from Benedictine orders. I also didn't understand or appreciate [i]Lectio Divina[/i] or [i]Ora et Labora[/i]. They sounded so foreign to me. Even stricter interpretations like Cistercian and Trappistine orders bothered me because of the way they practiced the Rule of St. Benedict.

I am also very unattracted to the Missionaries of Charity. I still don't feel a closeness to Mother Teresa. I watched a movie about her (the Olivia Hussey movie) and didn't like it. I don't hate her or anything, but I just don't particularly like anything she practiced. That intense poverty doesn't appeal to me. I know I would never be able to live it, either, and I'm fine with that.


On a more positive note, if I had to choose a spirituality that I am really attracted to, it would be Marian . I also love the Dominican, Franciscan, and Augustinian charisms, but the Marian orders appeal to me the most. I even like the Benedictines now (especially since I have a Benedictine friend AND I discovered the beautiful Benedictines of Mary!).

[InPersonaChriste]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1319945512' post='2328813']
Very interesting topic! I know that I was initially VERY repelled by the Benedictine spirituality. I couldn't pinpoint why, but, over time, it became clear that the reason why I disliked it is because it seemed like most of the dissenting Sisters came from Benedictine orders. I also didn't understand or appreciate [i]Lectio Divina[/i] or [i]Ora et Labora[/i]. They sounded so foreign to me. Even stricter interpretations like Cistercian and Trappistine orders bothered me because of the way they practiced the Rule of St. Benedict.

I am also very unattracted to the Missionaries of Charity. I still don't feel a closeness to Mother Teresa. I watched a movie about her (the Olivia Hussey movie) and didn't like it. I don't hate her or anything, but I just don't particularly like anything she practiced. That intense poverty doesn't appeal to me. I know I would never be able to live it, either, and I'm fine with that.


On a more positive note, if I had to choose a spirituality that I am really attracted to, it would be Marian . I also love the Dominican, Franciscan, and Augustinian charisms, but the Marian orders appeal to me the most. I even like the Benedictines now (especially since I have a Benedictine friend AND I discovered the beautiful Benedictines of Mary!).
[/quote]
I am your opposite

I was first introduced to Benedictines and Missionaries of Charity. I guess the charism of the orders has sort of stuck with me throughout the years as a young girl.

Ora et Labora is something I remind myself daily of, that idle hands are the work of the devil, and Praying as we work is also a very helpful element for scrupulous/prideful people like me.

I have always been attracted to Mother Teresa's spirit of poverty. The life of the sisters, they humility and austerity of this active community has always baffled me a little. But in a good way.

As for dominicans, franciscans, and augustinians. Well they have never really appealed to me the way the Benedictines or Missionaries of charity have. I love the Dominicans saying that not only do we contemplate, but give others the fruits of our contemplation. And St. Clare of Assisi is one of my personal favorite saints.

As for Mairian orders, I have never really gone into them. But I know that no man has ever become a saint without the help of our blessed virgin mother.

Edited October 30, 2011 by InPersonaChriste

[faithcecelia]

I don't think there is any given spirituality that repels me completely, but there are aspects of many (possibly all if I was to look hard enough!) that do.

I liked both Poor Clare communities I visited, but found myself desperate to be on my own, I wasn't comfortable with the amount of time they spent together as I long to retreat to solitude. I also struggled with the number of litanies, roasries and Franciscan prayers they said, I kept wondering when I would get any silent prayertime.

I love visiting St Cecilia's, I love their beautiful liturgy, but I know that it is beyond me, and the thought of having to concentrate so hard on the liturgy without being able to ponder it does repel me, I suppose.

Personally, I do find corporal discipline repellant, very much so, and it was hearing about it that made Kirk Edge a definate no for me - there was no more consideration after that, its a line I cannot cross. I was stunned when I had my live-in at NH, to be told about the community discipline on Friday morning, and had a sleepless night worrying if I had fallen in love with a community that I simply could not enter. In the end, their community penance is a beautiful service that brought tears to my eyes.

I suppose for me, I am called to 1991 Carmel, and God gives the graces needed to live the live He has called me to.

[Carmelshrimp]

Must admit I've never really got on with Franciscan spirituality and I had ample justification for it this morning when "Brother Dog" - my 6 stone goofy mutt - sat affectionately next to me. Unfortunately I hadn't noticed he'd settled his considerable bulk on the hem of my cassock, with the result that when I stood up a resounding ripping noise alerted me to the fact that I was likely to leave quite a bit of my apparel behind (under Brother Dog who was looking as pleased with himself as ever). Emergency repairs to liturgical dress are not the greatest preparation for worship - take it from a pricked-fingered expert

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1319963090' post='2328898']
I don't think there is any given spirituality that repels me completely, but there are aspects of many (possibly all if I was to look hard enough!) that do.

I liked both Poor Clare communities I visited, but found myself desperate to be on my own, I wasn't comfortable with the amount of time they spent together as I long to retreat to solitude. I also struggled with the number of litanies, roasries and Franciscan prayers they said, I kept wondering when I would get any silent prayertime.

I love visiting St Cecilia's, I love their beautiful liturgy, but I know that it is beyond me, and the thought of having to concentrate so hard on the liturgy without being able to ponder it does repel me, I suppose.

Personally, I do find corporal discipline repellant, very much so, and it was hearing about it that made Kirk Edge a definate no for me - there was no more consideration after that, its a line I cannot cross. I was stunned when I had my live-in at NH, to be told about the community discipline on Friday morning, and had a sleepless night worrying if I had fallen in love with a community that I simply could not enter. In the end, their community penance is a beautiful service that brought tears to my eyes.

I suppose for me, I am called to 1991 Carmel, and God gives the graces needed to live the live He has called me to.
[/quote]


Good points faith. I think that those things that repel us actually help us to discern what it is that attracts us.

Like you faith, I found the PCs more focused on community life than I felt attracted to. As for the Benedictine liturgy, when I first entered Carmel, I was more interested in contemplation that any other type of prayer because this was the deepest connection I had to God. I had no idea how to pray the Divine Office correctly, and it took time and tears to teach it to me. But over the years, I found the depth that I was seeking and the liturgy began to wash over me and uplift me. Now I know why the Benedictines have placed such emphasis on the Opus Dei (work of God) of the Divine Office and I find it a solace to my soul. Rather than try to ponder the meanings of psalms that were written so long before Christ, I embrace the whole experience as a prayer to God from the soul and let God plant the meaning deep within me. I think that's how I know I have become a Benedictine, slowly over time, as the Office has become such an important part of my prayer life. I still love mental prayer and contemplation, but this is more like drinking from a fountain, whereas the Office is more like making an offering of myself to God. I need both. And it is said that one who sings the psalms, prays twice, and I do prefer chanting over simply reciting - although both have purity and beauty.

I am not at all repelled by a life of penance and prayer and solitude, which are all Carmelite, because I live a very solitary and austere life personally, but I find that now I am more attracted to the Benedictine spirituality whose focus is less on penance and solitude and more on praising God. Discerning with Carmel has helped me to come to this understanding however, and I cherish all the time I spent in Carmel. I think that if I had discerned with Franciscans or Dominicans however, I would also have discovered my affinity for Benedictine life, but from a different perspective again.

[quote] Must admit I've never really got on with Franciscan spirituality and I had ample justification for it this morning when "Brother Dog" - my 6 stone goofy mutt - sat affectionately next to me. Unfortunately I hadn't noticed he'd settled his considerable bulk on the hem of my cassock, with the result that when I stood up a resounding ripping noise alerted me to the fact that I was likely to leave quite a bit of my apparel behind (under Brother Dog who was looking as pleased with himself as ever). Emergency repairs to liturgical dress are not the greatest preparation for worship - take it from a pricked-fingered expert [/quote]

This makes me laugh. I adore all animals and love St Francis - even took St Clare as my confirmation saint because at the time I felt closer to Francis than any other saint because he loved animals too - and Clare just seemed like his female counterpart. I think a lot of young girls are Franciscans at heart - my own daughter took Francis as her confirmation name!! And the idea of Lady Poverty is also very appealing to me, but as faith pointed out - the Franciscans are very focused on community life, and I have always been a more solitary person. When I heard that the PCs don't go back to their cells during the day (might not be true of all communities), I felt repelled by this a little (repell still seems like such a harsh word! ) as I need time alone as well as time in community.

[Aya Sophia]

During my first round of discernment I was inquiring with Benedictines as well as other Orders following the Rule of St. Ben. I was extremely attracted to the "spiritual aesthetics" of certain Benedictine monasteries but was also "attracted to Carmel." The latter attraction was (as is often the case with people like self) almost exclusively to St. John of the Cross. In any case, I also contacted Carmels (had no idea about differing Constitutions, etc.at that point - didn't learn about that until my first visit to Kirk Edge in 2009 and couldn't now look back and confirm which Carmels in the US I inquired with or who was '90 or '91).

The letters and information I received in response from these Carmels was terribly offputting. I didn't like the [i]horarium[/i], which hacked the day into eensy weensy little pieces. How dreadful! The saccherine holy cards included in the responses offended my keen and very refined aesthetic sensibilities (yes, I would have to say, they were definitely [i]repellant[/i] to me). For the intellectual that I was (and still am) it seemed I would have to leave my brains at the door. It was all dreadful. I concluded that my attraction to Carmel was "in theory" but not "in reality" - I liked the "idea" of it but there was no 3-D life corresponding to this idea. I didn't know at the time (couldn't have) that I was responding entirely to externals. not listening for a "word" speaking a response in my heart. But of course, the Lord often uses externals to draw us in, esp at the beginning. In hindsight it's clear that His arrangements were best (quelle surprise!) It was not time for me to enter Carmel. It [i]was[/i] time for me to enter the Benedictines and He did indeed draw me into them with all kinds of lovely attractions.

Now, years later, after much evolving and unfolding, I am approaching Carmel - a very long approach with two steps forward, one step back, kind of thing because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and easily "repelled" by physical hardship. I think possibly the most misunderstood element of a vocation to Carmel (speaking of austere Carmels, those that made no significant changes during the period of "open experiment") is that it is not much based on natural attraction. If a person enters with such attractions these attractions quickly wither away and the meat of the call reveals itself. Plenty of repugnance to work one's way through then! (Pity that I seem to [i]know[/i] so much about all of this but, thus far, have yet to [i]live [/i]it. I pray that, if it be the Lord's will, I do so.)

Edited October 30, 2011 by Aya Sophia

[InPersonaChriste]

I think this thread goes to show that everyone discerns differently and from a different perspective. It's actually beautiful to hear that we are all different!

[vee]

What repels me are spiritualities of pride and disobedience.

[marigold]

[quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1319980458' post='2328937']
During my first round of discernment I was inquiring with Benedictines as well as other Orders following the Rule of St. Ben. I was extremely attracted to the "spiritual aesthetics" of certain Benedictine monasteries but was also "attracted to Carmel." The latter attraction was (as is often the case with people like self) almost exclusively to St. John of the Cross. In any case, I also contacted Carmels (had no idea about differing Constitutions, etc.at that point - didn't learn about that until my first visit to Kirk Edge in 2009 and couldn't now look back and confirm which Carmels in the US I inquired with or who was '90 or '91).

The letters and information I received in response from these Carmels was terribly offputting. I didn't like the [i]horarium[/i], which hacked the day into eensy weensy little pieces. How dreadful! The saccherine holy cards included in the responses offended my keen and very refined aesthetic sensibilities (yes, I would have to say, they were definitely [i]repellant[/i] to me). For the intellectual that I was (and still am) it seemed I would have to leave my brains at the door. It was all dreadful. I concluded that my attraction to Carmel was "in theory" but not "in reality" - I liked the "idea" of it but there was no 3-D life corresponding to this idea. I didn't know at the time (couldn't have) that I was responding entirely to externals. not listening for a "word" speaking a response in my heart. But of course, the Lord often uses externals to draw us in, esp at the beginning. In hindsight it's clear that His arrangements were best (quelle surprise!) It was not time for me to enter Carmel. It [i]was[/i] time for me to enter the Benedictines and He did indeed draw me into them with all kinds of lovely attractions.

Now, years later, after much evolving and unfolding, I am approaching Carmel - a very long approach with two steps forward, one step back, kind of thing because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and easily "repelled" by physical hardship. I think possibly the most misunderstood element of a vocation to Carmel (speaking of austere Carmels, those that made no significant changes during the period of "open experiment") is that it is not much based on natural attraction. If a person enters with such attractions these attractions quickly wither away and the meat of the call reveals itself. Plenty of repugnance to work one's way through then! (Pity that I seem to [i]know[/i] so much about all of this but, thus far, have yet to [i]live [/i]it. I pray that, if it be the Lord's will, I do so.)
[/quote]

I agree that we CAN end up in places that initially are distasteful, or maybe just don't tick all our boxes. Sometimes they grow on us and sometimes we just have to grin and bear them. But let's not forget that it can be marvellous fun, and - dare I say - ought to be, at least once in a while

Following this thread with interest...

Edited October 30, 2011 by marigold

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Carmelshrimp' timestamp='1319967768' post='2328908']
Must admit I've never really got on with Franciscan spirituality and I had ample justification for it this morning when "Brother Dog" - my 6 stone goofy mutt - sat affectionately next to me. Unfortunately I hadn't noticed he'd settled his considerable bulk on the hem of my cassock, with the result that when I stood up a resounding ripping noise alerted me to the fact that I was likely to leave quite a bit of my apparel behind (under Brother Dog who was looking as pleased with himself as ever). Emergency repairs to liturgical dress are not the greatest preparation for worship - take it from a pricked-fingered expert
[/quote]

Off-topic--Sorry.

Carmelshrimp--I haven't had a chance to say "Welcome" yet, so "Welcome."

On Phatmass in general, and in VS in particular, we have a special love and respect for those currently in religious life/service. It sounds from your post as if you are. (I apologize that I don't remember your previous posts.)

If you send a private message to IcePrincess (one of the administrators--dUSt can do it, too, but his mailbox is often full), she will give you a lovely tag that identifies you as a religious. Note to mods: If you see this post, will you contact IcePrincess, and we can get Carmeliteshrimp a religious tag as soon as possible?

BTW--"Religious" applies not only to those in religious orders (even postulants), but also to diocesan priests, seminarians, etc.

Back to this very interesting discussion....

Edited October 30, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola