How Is Mary Related To My Salvation?

[Aloysius]

[b]ΑΥΤΟΣ ΔΕ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΜΕΝΟΥΝ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΙ ΟΙ ΑΚΟΥΟΝΤΕΣ ΤΟΝ ΛΟΓΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΘΕΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΦΥΛΑΣΣΟΝΤΕΣ [/b]
[i]ΛΟΥΚΑΣ 11:28[/i]
([i]Luke 11:28[/i])

[b]ΑΥΤΟΣ[/b],rp {ow-tos'}
1) himself, herself, themselves, itself 2) he, she, it 3) the same

[b]ΔΕ[/b],c {deh}
1) but, [b][u]moreover[/u][/b], [b][u]and[/u][/b], etc.
[b]
ΛΕΓΩ[/b],v {leg'-o}
1) to say, to speak 1a) [b][u]affirm over, maintain [/u] [/b]1b) to teach 1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct 1d)[b] to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say[/b] 1e) to call by name, to call, name 1f) [b]to speak out, speak of, men[/b]tion

[b]ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΣ[/b],a {mak-ar'-ee-os}
1) blessed,

[b]ΟΙ ; Ο,ra[/b] {ho}
1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

[b]ΑΚΟΥΟΝΤΕΣ[/b]; [b]ΑΚΟΥΩ[/b],v {ak-oo'-o}
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf 2) to hear 2b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said 2c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said 3) to hear something 3a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence 3b) to get by hearing learn 3c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn 3d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher 3e) to comprehend, to understand

[b]ΤΟΝ ; Ο,ra [/b] {ho}
1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

[b]ΛΟΓΟΣ[/b],n {log'-os}
1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim ...

[b]TOY; Ο,ra[/b] {ho}
1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

[b]ΘΕΟΣ[/b],n {theh'-os}
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity 2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity 2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity 3) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

[b]ΚΑΙ[/b],c {kahee}
1) and, also, even, indeed, but

[b]ΦΥΛΑΣΣΩ[/b],v {foo-las'-so}
1) to guard 1a) to watch, keep watch 1b) to guard or watch, have an eye upon: lest he escape 1c) to guard a person (or thing) that he may remain safe 1c1) lest he suffer violence, be despoiled, etc. to protect 1c2) to protect one from a person or thing 1c3) to keep from being snatched away, preserve safe and unimpaired 1c4) to guard from being lost or perishing 1c5) to guard one's self from a thing 1d) to guard i.e. care for, take care not to violate 1d1) to observe 2) to observe for one's self something to escape 2a) to avoid, shun flee from 2b) to guard for one's self (i.e. for one's safety's sake) so as not to violate, i.e. to keep, observe (the precepts of the Mosaic law)

Edited May 17, 2004 by Aloysius

[Aloysius]

bump.

hey i did alot of greek research to make that post!

someone better respond...

[Mickey's_Girl]

[quote name='jasJis' date='May 1 2004, 09:16 AM'] May is Mary's month. It is a month, like Mary, [u]which is not so much necessary [/u]([b]as if God is under the iron rule of some grim law of economics or physics[/b]) [u][b]as radically unnecessary, gratuitous, and lavish[/b][/u]. People often ask why Mary is "necessary" to Catholic piety. But this is like asking whether flowers or galaxies or beautiful weather are "necessary." It's a fundamentally tone deaf way of hearing God. [u]None of creation was "necessary" to God.[/u] It exists because God just thought it was a good idea and loved it into being.

But having loved it into being, He chose also to redeem it after it was afflicted by sin, not in any old way, but in a very particular way, by taking our humanity up into His divine life. And to do this, [u]he chose Mary -again not because He needed her, but because He loved her gratuitously.[/u] We, who have been loved with the same gratuitous, inexplicable, lavish love, have little reason to cavil at this. God has loves far more than reasons. But the fact that He does so does not mean that we can't and shouldn't be grateful for His gratuitous love. And it doesn't mean we shouldn't be grateful to Mary too. She had a lot of guts - a lot more than we have - to freely say, "Let it be to me according to your word." So honor her this month.

If we can honor the soldiers who laid down everything for the love of country on Memorial Day at the end of the month, surely we can honor the young girl who laid down her will and her dear Son for the love of God and the whole world.


- CatholicExchange.com [/quote]
JasJis--

I don't even believe the same things about Mary that you do (since I'm Protestant), but wow, that was BEAUTIFUL! Thanks for the quote. :-)

MG

[the lumberjack]

But [blue]de[/COLOR]
he [blue]autos[/COLOR]
said, [blue]epo[/COLOR]
Yea rather, [blue]menounge[/COLOR]
blessed [b][blue]makarios[/COLOR][/b]
[are] they that hear [blue]akouo[/COLOR]
the word [blue]logos[/COLOR]
of God, [blue]theos[/COLOR]
and [blue]kai[/COLOR]
keep [blue]phulasso[/COLOR]
it. [blue]autos[/COLOR]

menounge--
Part of Speech
particle
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) nay surely, nay rather
used 3 times in answers by which what was previously said was corrected (and standing at the beginning of the clause, contrary to the Attic usage which is never so placed) see: Luke 11:28 Romans 9:20, 10:18; also Philemon 3:8

God bless.

[Aloysius]

that's the word i couldn't find a solid translation of anywhere i looked: ΜΕΝΟΥΝ
as far as i can see it clearly can either mean nay, rather, or depending on contex indeed but rather with an emphasis on the second statement. i contend this is the usage in Luke. indeed Mary is blessed, but rather i emphasize to you all are blessed who hear the word of God and follow it (of course including Mary) he affirms the blessing on Mary with ΕΙΠΕΝ

hmm...

however, in the context of ΔΕ (moreover, and) ΕΙΠΕΝ (affirming, maintaining) doesn't it seem more that MENOYN within context means indeed, also. the other usages clearly do not have the same context here.
the other usages in the Bible:

Romans 9:20 Ω ΑΝΘΡΩΠΕ ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ ΣΥ ΤΙΣ ΕΙ Ο ΑΝΤΑΠΟΚΡΙΝΟΜΕΝΟΣ ΤΩ ΘΕΩ; ΜΗ ΕΡΕΙ ΤΟ ΠΛΑΣΜΑ ΤΩ ΠΛΑΣΑΝΤΙ ΤΙ ΜΕ ΕΠΟΙΗΣΑΣ ΟΥΤΩΣ
[quote]Ω,i  {o}
1) the interjection, O! [/quote]
[quote]ΑΝΘΡΩΠΟΣ,n  {anth'-ro-pos}
1) a human being, whether male or female  1a) generically, to include all human individuals  1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order  1b1) of animals and plants  1b2) of from God and Christ  1b3) of the angels  1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led  into a mistake or prompted to sin  1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity  1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul  1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt  and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God  1g) with reference to sex, a male  2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one  3) in the plural, people  4) joined with other words, merchantman [/quote]
again, no matter where i look i cant find the translation for ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ but we're taking your word for it [quote]1) nay surely, nay rather[/quote]

there are no words around it to indicate reafirming and maintaining something, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" it's clearly in a context to deny that man should say stuff to God like 'why have you made me this way' and such. The other usage in Luke was surrounded by words of affirmation of the previous statements, no context to suggest He is denying the statement that His mother is blessed in her motherhood of Him.

[b][u]The context here supports the denial of the first statement (an outcry against God). The Context in Luke does not.[/u][/b]
Romans 10:18
ΑΛΛΑ ΛΕΓΩ ΜΗ ΟΥΚ ΗΚΟΥΣΑΝ; ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ ΕΙΣ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΤΗΝ ΓΗΝ ΕΞΗΛΘΕΝ Ο ΦΘΟΓΓΟΣ ΑΥΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣ ΤΑ ΠΕΡΑΤΑ ΤΗΣ ΟΙΚΟΥΜΕΝΗΣ ΤΑ ΡΗΜΑΤΑ ΑΥΤΩΝ

ΑΛΛΑ [quote]ΑΛΛΑ,c  {al-lah'}
1) but  1a) nevertheless, notwithstanding  1b) an objection  1c) an exception  1d) a restriction  1e) nay, rather, yea, moreover  1f) forms a transition to the cardinal matter [/quote]
ΛΕΓΩ [quote]ΛΕΓΩ,v  {leg'-o}
1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention [/quote]
[quote] [b]ΜΗ,x  {may}
1) no, not lest  ΜΗ,x  {may}
1) no, not lest  1) not, not ever [/b] [/quote]
[quote][b]ΟΥ,d  {oo}
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer[/b][/quote]
[quote]ΑΚΟΥΩ,v  {ak-oo'-o}
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf  2) to hear  2b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said  2c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said  3) to hear something  3a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence  3b) to get by hearing learn  3c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn  3d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher  3e) to comprehend, to understand [/quote]

[b][u]the context here supports the denial of the first statement (about the jews not hearing)[/u][/b]
[u]
[b]the context in Luke does not support a denial of the first statement.[/b][/u]

interesting stuff, interesting stuff.

but we both know it's absurd to think that God relies on such an ancient text to teach us nowadays, right? in that we could be missing the thought process of the time it was written to, in that we don't even have the most original manuscripts, in that if we were to only be able to know God's message by the Scriptures alone only the smartest greek scholars could decipher it, instead of the prayerful and sometimes knowledgable Church Hierarchy.

Pax Amorque Christi
<three favorite languages: HEBREW, LATIN, GREEK>

[amarkich]

I have only read the first couple of pages of this thread, so forgive me if I repeat what another person has said, but from what I read, I doubt that I am repeating anyone. Devotion to Mary, according to many Saints and theologians, is necessary for salvation. I know that people have gotten around exactly stating this in previous posts. While it is not dogmatically defined, it is clear that Mary is necessary for salvation. Just as "no man can have God for his father who will not have the Church for his Mother", so likewise, as Saint John Eudes says, "A man is no true Christian if he has not devotion to the Mother of Jesus Christ." The necessity of devotion to Our Lady for salvation can be likened to the doctrine of Limbo. While Limbo is not authoritatively taught Ex Cathedra by the Church, it is obvious that this is a true doctrine. The same is true for devotion to Our Lady. It is clear that Mary is necessary for salvation as far as Catholic theology is concerned.


The next pertinent question is: Why is devotion to Mary necessary for salvation? There are many things that must be understood in order to answer this question. First, the connection of Mary as the New Eve must be understood. This connection is seen throughout Sacred Scripture. Mary must also be seen in comparrison to the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Finally, Mary must also be recognized as free from Original Sin, free from all sin, a perpetual virgin, and as having been assumed into Heaven. After recognizing all of these characteristics (which, of course, would likewise have to be explained using Scripture, and, more importantly Church authority and historical evidence), it can then be illustrated why Mary is necessary for salvation. I apologize that I cannot explain all of these things, at least at this time, but I will leave you with a simple fact that applies both to Our Lady as well as to the Saints. We recognize the simple philosophical truth which is stated by Saint Dionysius, namely that it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries (c.f., [i]Unam Sanctam[/i], Pope Boniface VIII). With this being said, we recognize that all things have a sense of order in the universe and that it is necessary in order to be brought to the highest things, namely Almighty God Himself, that we must be elevated by intermediaries, namely the Saints, especially the Blessed Virgin Mary.


If you are truly interested in truth in this matter, you should read about the subject because there is so much that must be said in order to illustrate the points that I made above. As far as I understand Scott Hahn's book on the matter is very good. This would be a good place to start. I will leave you with the words of God Himself concerning Mary (which foreshadows the New Eve and is speaking specifically of her): "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." c.f., Genesis iii.15. God bless.

[b]Ianua Caeli,[/b] ora pro nobis.

Edited May 18, 2004 by amarkich

[mulls]

[quote]I have only read the first couple of pages of this thread, so forgive me if I repeat what another person has said, but from what I read, I doubt that I am repeating anyone. Devotion to Mary, [b]according to many Saints and theologians[/b], is necessary for salvation. I know that people have gotten around exactly stating this in previous posts. [b]While it is not dogmatically defined, it is clear that Mary is necessary for salvation.[/b] Just as "no man can have God for his father who will not have the Church for his Mother", so likewise, [b]as Saint John Eudes says, "A man is no true Christian if he has not devotion to the Mother of Jesus Christ." [/b]The necessity of devotion to Our Lady for salvation can be likened to the doctrine of Limbo. [b]While Limbo is not authoritatively taught Ex Cathedra by the Church, it is obvious that this is a true doctrine.[/b] [b]The same is true for devotion to Our Lady. [/b]It is clear that Mary is necessary for salvation as far as Catholic theology is concerned.


The next pertinent question is: Why is devotion to Mary necessary for salvation? There are many things that must be understood in order to answer this question. First, the connection of Mary as the New Eve must be understood. This connection is seen throughout Sacred Scripture. Mary must also be seen in comparrison to the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Finally, Mary must also be recognized as free from Original Sin, free from all sin, a perpetual virgin, and as having been assumed into Heaven. After recognizing all of these characteristics ([b]which, of course, would likewise have to be explained using Scripture, and, more importantly Church authority and historical evidence), it can then be illustrated why Mary is necessary for salvation.[/b] I apologize that I cannot explain all of these things, at least at this time, but I will leave you with a simple fact that applies both to Our Lady as well as to the Saints. We recognize the simple philosophical truth which is stated by Saint Dionysius, namely that it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries (c.f., [i]Unam Sanctam[/i], Pope Boniface VIII). With this being said, we recognize that all things have a sense of order in the universe and that it is necessary in order to be brought to the highest things, namely Almighty God Himself, [b]that we must be elevated by intermediaries, namely the Saints, especially the Blessed Virgin Mary.[/b]


If you are truly interested in truth in this matter, you should read about the subject because there is so much that must be said in order to illustrate the points that I made above. As far as I understand Scott Hahn's book on the matter is very good. This would be a good place to start. I will leave you with the words of God Himself concerning Mary (which foreshadows the New Eve and is speaking specifically of her): "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." c.f., Genesis iii.15. God bless. [/quote]




i highlighted everything i disagreed with in that statement, i hope it is clear as to why.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]but we both know it's absurd to think that God relies on such an ancient text to teach us nowadays, right?[/quote]

I don't know about that...

the bible is the basis for all doctrine... the teachings of Christ and the apostles.

so to say that its basically irrelevant is wrong.

if you want to look at the verse from where I did, you can go to blueletterbible.org . hope it helps

God bless.

[mulls]

devotion to Mary isn't dogmatically defined, but it's clearly necessary....

Saint John Eudes said this quote, so it's gotta be true....

Limbo isn't taught ex cathedra, but it's obviously true....

church authority and history is more important in this matter than scripture....

we must be elevated by intermediaries....by the saints and Mary, but not Jesus!??!.....


sorry, this doesn't fly with me.

[Aloysius]

im usin greekbible.com it seems more reliable to me, but i could be wrong.

i don't mean to call the Bible irrelevant, but i mean to say that God does not intend His message to be only accessable to Greek scholars and people who use lexicons and commentaries and such. It is meant to be taught by apostolic authority to the people.

SOLA VERBUM DEI includes scripture, tradition, and Church teaching, and could soooo beat up SOLA SCRIPTURA in a fight!

Pax Amorque Christi

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 03:41 PM']


the bible is the basis for all doctrine... the teachings of Christ and the apostles.

[/quote]
I've opened another thread with the subject of "The Bible is the basis for all doctrine -- true or false?" Anyone interested in this topic, please go there. Thanks.

[P3chrmd]

I think it ALL boils down to what GOD puts in your heart! I was raised protestant and stayed one for years! But I felt, through time, a conviction by God to go to the TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH...The Catholic Church! Mary is so amazing and her wonderful love for us is amazing!

I would think people would be more excepting of her. I mean, how amazing is it that Jesus loves us SOOO much that he shares his mother with us...and then we have people who deny that gift and deny her! Well...why don't you just go right ahead and slap God in the face!

Like our good ol' pal Jim Caviezel recentley said in an interview

[quote]"Mary was obviously the Ark of Jesus. She is the one who nurtured the Son of God...She's the spouse of the Holy Spirit. And she brings Him to us, fully. When people say to me, "What is this thing about Mary?" I say, "I'm obeying Jesus--what are you talking about? I'm obeying my Father. You go to Him. You ask Him why."! [/quote]

[crusader1234]

Did the person who asked this question disappear? Anyways... I like to keep it simple... "Mary was chosen by God to give birth to Jesus, and we are to show her the respect she deserves. Jesus told us to, God tells us to, its all over the Bible, so just give props to your momma". Wow I'm messed up tonight.

[Crusader_4]

Crusader1234 lol well put and everyone well put here. Mary is our mother and i am proud of that very proud of that once someone has honestly done the rosary it takes on a whole new meaning.

[Andrew Bobola]

Lest we forget one of Mary's titles is Mediatrix of Grace. Mary is the vessel through which all grace flows. I sincerely believe that to obtain heaven one must have a great devotion to the Blessed Mother. I mean, who holds more power over a man that his mother? The Blessed Virgin is the one human whom God raised above the rest and chose to be fit for His only Son to Redeem us. So Through the birth of the Savior comes redemption, and by that same vessel i.e. Mary, comes redemption.