Katholikos Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 (edited) Narnia, please go to one of the OSAS threads and give us your reasons for not believing it. Your denial of OSAS illustrates the problem with Protestantism. Others read the same Scriptures you do and conclude that it's true. The only authority is the Bible and every person is his own infallible interpreter. ------------ L. J., Luther -- the "father" of Protestantism -- and Calvin denied the teaching of the Catholic Church that man has free will. Luther's view is set forth in "The Bondage of the Will," available on line. Like all human beings, Mary had free will. She could have said "no" to God. She freely chose to say "yes." Edited to add: BTW, we do pray to Mary's parents, Saints Joachim and Anne, and name Churches after them. We don't know her grandparents' names, but they are honored on "All Saints Day" when all the saints of God, those whose names are known and unknown, are acknowledged as our ancestors in the Faith. Edited May 6, 2004 by Katholikos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Likos...you're so cool! (not to hijack this thread...well, yea to hijack this thread, isn't it so joyful to have Bishop Olmstead?!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted May 6, 2004 Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote name='Katholikos' date='May 6 2004, 06:01 AM'] Narnia, please go to one of the OSAS threads and give us your reasons for not believing it. Your denial of OSAS illustrates the problem with Protestantism. Others read the same Scriptures you do and conclude that it's true. The only authority is the Bible and every person is his own infallible interpreter. ------------ L. J., Luther -- the "father" of Protestantism -- and Calvin denied the teaching of the Catholic Church that man has free will. Luther's view is set forth in "The Bondage of the Will," available on line. Like all human beings, Mary had free will. She could have said "no" to God. She freely chose to say "yes." Edited to add: BTW, we do pray to Mary's parents, Saints Joachim and Anne, and name Churches after them. We don't know her grandparents' names, but they are honored on "All Saints Day" when all the saints of God, those whose names are known and unknown, are acknowledged as our ancestors in the Faith. [/quote] Hello? Am I accountable to you Katholikos? Why SHOULD I give my reasons for not believing OSAS just because you told me to?? I sensed pride here. ..is it from u likos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote name='narnia' date='May 6 2004, 01:42 PM'] Hello? Am I accountable to you Katholikos? Why SHOULD I give my reasons for not believing OSAS just because you told me to?? I sensed pride here. ..is it from u likos? [/quote] I don't think Likos intended that as an order, but rather as a request (ergo the "please"). There is a difference. Would you expect us to answer your original question ""Why SHOULD I tell you how Mary is related to your salvation, just because you told me to."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote]Thus He knew from all eternity that Mary would be a virgin dedicated to Him from childhood and that she would say "Yes" to His invitation, delivered by the Angel Gabriel, to be the Mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity[/quote] so you say that Jesus is part of the Trinity in physical form? is God a man? or is God a spirit, as the Bible says? Christ didn't have to be born of anyone...He could have just popped up on the scene one day...and poof...heres the creator of the universe...but no, for His human shell to be born into the world, He had to endure the law, to the last letter, to be able to fulfill it... but hey, if you choose to praise one woman in Christ's lineage, and not the rest...thats your purogative. if you choose to believe that she was conceived and born without the original sin that we are ALL born with....thats your purogative...if you believe that she was carried into heaven like oh, say Enoch or Elijah...which I've seen some on this board say is "disputed"....thats your purogative. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Jesus didn't have a "shell" he had a human body and a human nature joined to his divine nature. He is the God-man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 6 2004, 12:30 PM'] so you say that Jesus is part of the Trinity in physical form? is God a man? or is God a spirit, as the Bible says? Christ didn't have to be born of anyone...He could have just popped up on the scene one day...and poof...heres the creator of the universe...but no, for His human shell to be born into the world, He had to endure the law, to the last letter, to be able to fulfill it... but hey, if you choose to praise one woman in Christ's lineage, and not the rest...thats your purogative. if you choose to believe that she was conceived and born without the original sin that we are ALL born with....thats your purogative...if you believe that she was carried into heaven like oh, say Enoch or Elijah...which I've seen some on this board say is "disputed"....thats your purogative. God bless.[/quote] The Incarnation, the belief that the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us (Jn 1:1-14) is a doctrine absolutely essential to Christianity. Jesus was fully human and fully divine, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. When we say that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, we are referring to His human nature and confirming our belief that Jesus is God. His Divine Nature is uncreated and existed from all eternity. He Himself is our Creator, with the Father and the Spirit (Jn 1:1-3). [b]Jesus -- God Himself -- took his human nature from His mother. The Body he offered on the Cross for our salvation, He took took from His mother. [u]She consented to give him the instrument of our salvation.[/u] His very flesh and bones were knit from her womb. He is bone of her bone, flesh of her flesh, blood of her blood, DNA of her DNA.[/b] That's why we honor her. That's why she honors us by hearing our prayers and offering her prayers for us to her Son. She was with Him at Calvary. And she was in the Upper Room with St. John and the Apostles when He sent the Spirit, and the Church he promised to build on Peter in Mt 16:18 was born. And the "powers of death" (RSV) or "gates of hell" (KJV) have never prevailed against it. The doctrine of the Trinity can't be proven from the Bible, but it was taught to the Church by the Apostles, and is known to us through Sacred Apostolic Tradition. The Bible does not explicitly state that there are the Three Persons in One God, nor does it explain the Hypostatic Union (the unity of the two Natures -- True God and True Man). These doctrines are alluded to in the Scriptures, but not specifically stated. Yet (most) Protestants believe them. "Prerogative" means an exclusive right or privilege. It is not our prerogative to believe what the Church teaches. It is our solemn obligation, since Jesus Christ -- God Himself -- said to the leaders of His Church, "He who hears you hears me, and who rejects you, rejects me . . ." Lk 10:16. You reject him, except on your own terms; I hear and believe Him. It is a [i]de fide[/i] doctrine of the Catholic Church that: "the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, after completing her course of life upon earth, was assumed to the glory of heaven both in body and soul" (Denzinger 2331). Since the Church has not defined whether the BVM died first and then was assumed (the Orthodox belief), or was assumed into heaven before she died (as were Enoch and Elijah), Catholics are free to believe either case. She was assumed into heaven, body and soul, and that's what is important. O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee. Ave Cor Mariae, Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote name='traichuoi' date='May 6 2004, 11:07 AM'] Likos...you're so cool! (not to hijack this thread...well, yea to hijack this thread, isn't it so joyful to have Bishop Olmstead?!) [/quote] Thanks! About the bishop: I can hardly contain my joy. :cheer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote name='narnia' date='Apr 30 2004, 10:45 PM'] But... Good one Bro Adam. Why would I NOT want devotion to Mary...? Because: Devotion to Jesus is enough. (FULL STOP) [/quote] This can be applied to anything that brings us closer to Jesus then: the Bible, prayer, charity, etc. If devotion to Jesus is enough (FULL STOP), then throw away your Bible, as it's not needed. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 LJ...its perrogative, not purogative also.....there is no way that Jesus, who was perfect, could come from something that was not also perfect. It doesnt make logical sense.....i cant really think of a good analogy, but to have something that is perfect and sinless come from a stained soul just doesnt seem correct, thus, Mary must have been free from original sin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 6 2004, 12:30 PM'] but hey, if you choose to praise one woman in Christ's lineage, and not the rest...thats your purogative. [/quote] We honor ALL the saints in heaven, and look to their example to bring us closer to Christ, not just Mary. We're a huge family man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote name='narnia' date='May 6 2004, 11:42 AM']Hello? Am I accountable to you Katholikos? Why SHOULD I give my reasons for not believing OSAS just because you told me to?? I sensed pride here. ..is it from u likos? [/quote] Thanks, [b]PolarBear[/b]. You got it right. I was requesting, not ordering. ---------------- [b]Narnia[/b], I was simply inviting you to defend and clarify your beliefs. Some Protestants on this board have posted "proof texts" for their belief in OSAS. I would like to see your "proof texts" against it, since all of you claim that the Bible is your sole rule of faith. Judging by your reaction, I must have struck a nerve. Protestants usually just ignore their differences, though they are as wide and as deep as the Grand Canyon. Maybe you didn't want to be reminded that the belief of others in OSAS and your denial of it are based on the same 66-book cut version of the Bible. I merely ask, who is right? If you don't wish to defend your position, that's up to you. Any pride you sensed was not personal, but in the Church which was founded by Christ and wrote the New Testament. Am I proud to be a Catholic? You betcha. You're not accountable to me, but to God, for what you believe. Peace be with you, Narnia Likos (Jay) Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote]ecstatic to be Catholic![/quote] sounds like the next PM tshirt to me!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 [quote name='lankyswimmer' date='May 6 2004, 01:47 PM'] LJ...its perrogative, not purogative also.....there is no way that Jesus, who was perfect, could come from something that was not also perfect. It doesnt make logical sense.....i cant really think of a good analogy, but to have something that is perfect and sinless come from a stained soul just doesnt seem correct, thus, Mary must have been free from original sin [/quote] so does it make sense that God would use a lowly shephard to defeat the phillistine giant? is it logical that God would use that same shepard, who by the way was an adulterer, to be the father to the man who would build His temple? and be called, "a man after God's own heart" ? is it logical that God would use a stuttering Jew that had ran from the truth to bring His people out of Egypt? is it logical that God would let His PERFECT son be born not only in a manger, but in such a reviled town such as Bethlehem? is it logical that God would use a coward that ran from his calling to go preach to some of the most wicked people on the earth? Jonah... is it logical that God would create 2 PERFECT people, even after knowing what they would do? is it logical that God would let a whore (Rahab) be part of our Saviour's lineage? or that a Moabite (Ruth), also be part of our saviour's lineage? or that God allow a crooked man (Jacob) to be the one thru which He would use to build His people? or that God would allow His people to be held captive by Babylon? God is not logical...not to us...to say that anyone can comprehend God is to make them equal to Him... God has ALWAYS used imperfect vessels to carry out His perfect will... His strength is made perfect in our weakness...is it not? God bless. ps...oh, and lanky...its prerogative... not perrogative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Gee LJ! Did he hit a soft spot?He made sense didn't he. God could create His own Mother don't you think He would have made Her perfect as He is perfect. He took on Her Flesh and Blood. [quote]ps...oh, and lanky...its prerogative... not perrogative [/quote] Nice Charity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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