How Is Mary Related To My Salvation?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 5 2004, 10:53 AM'] this is what I'm talking about...

"two hearts in one" ?????

is this not a mockery of God by making a human...a woman, equal with Him?

I do call Mary blessed among women...

I do not however conceded to giving her anything other than what the Bible has given any other servant of God.

why do you not pray to the ancestors of Mary in the same way you pray to her?  were it not for them, Mary would have not been born...

ultimately, it can all be traced back to Adam and Eve...

why do you not pray to them?  were it not for them, sin would have not entered the world and we would have no need for Christ...and thus, Mary would have never been needed...

----

and Likos, if God chose Mary from the beginning of the world, where does this leave our free will?

or do just some of us get it and not others?

since the Catholic Church also says that Mary was born without sin...maybe she was a nice little God robot...with no free will... [/quote]
A little off track brother

She is the Immaculate conception, God preserved Her from stain of sin, His flesh is from Her flesh, Her flesh was sinless, and Jesus was sinless

On Calvary Jesus was the ultimate Sacrifice for all mankind, but Mary particpated in that Sacrifice in a special way.

We all do, She is our model to Jesus! She lived the closet to Him had a personal loving relationship with Him, She contemplated His life first. She teaches us to do the same.

Mary doesn't take away from Jesus, She points towards Jesus all the more. "And a sword shall pierce your heart" She suffered the loss of Her only Son on Calvery and when she said Her "Yes" I'm sure she knew this. Robot huh, I would say a loving Mother who even though she knew Her Son would be cruelly put to death for sinners, Her "Yes" makes Her a servant of the Lord, not a robot? It makes Her a loving Mother to all sinners! Mother Mary we love!

God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

again, Jason, I'll wait for someone else to post.

thanks anyway.

God bless.

[theculturewarrior]

Mary is not only the Mother of God, but she is our mother too. Do you say to your mother, "thanks for giving birth to me, but now that I'm here, well, that's as far as the relationship is going to go." I really doubt it, because you and I both know, that would be "qorban."

Suppose I asked my mother to pray for a non Christian. Would that be helpful for his salvation? Do you suppose my mother would cease praying in heaven? Do you suppose God ignores his own mother's prayers for the salvation of the world, or for your own personal salvation?

Edited May 5, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[Livin_the_MASS]

[bookofjohn]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 5 2004, 11:53 PM'] and Likos, if God chose Mary from the beginning of the world, where does this leave our free will?

or do just some of us get it and not others?

since the Catholic Church also says that Mary was born without sin...maybe she was a nice little God robot...with no free will... [/quote]
Most Christians agree that EVERYTHING is by God's choosing.

God CHOSE to give us free will and God CHOSE Mary.

Everyone has free will including the Blessed Virgin and that's what makes her so special.

She accepted the Calling to bring forth the Word to this world and thus the Word made flesh.

Can God choose another person other than Mary, if Mary were to say no?

The answer would be: No.

Why? Because...

God is constant. His plans are from Eternity and the people He chose, He chose from Eternity. And He makes no mistakes. He doesn't go saying "Oops! Wrong woman.. let me see.. who else is there?" And to make mistakes is not the nature of God.

So does Mary has free will? Of course!

God KNEW that Mary would say YES. That is WHY He chose her from eternity and prepared her to be immaculate (free from sin) and full of grace.

Amen.

Peace,

bookofjohn

Edited May 5, 2004 by bookofjohn

[the lumberjack]

[quote]God is constant. [b]His plans are from Eternity and the people He chose, He chose from Eternity[/b]. And He makes no mistakes. He doesn't go saying "Oops! Wrong woman.. let me see.. who else is there?" And to make mistakes is not the nature of God.[/quote]

so once God has chosen you, there's nothing you can do to be UNchosen?

thats what it looks like you're saying.

and if it is...then me oh my...

the Catholic Church is the biggest advocate of OSAS.

you can't not be, and I'm not saying this out of spite or any other malicious intent.

if what bookofjohn said is true...then God chose us and we can not unchoose Him.

including Mary.

[theculturewarrior]

You're not getting it. Mary could have said no. That's what a choice is.

[the lumberjack]

no, apparently from earlier posts, she couldn't have said no...

and that seems to be what boj here is pointing out.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 5 2004, 03:57 PM'] no, apparently from earlier posts, she couldn't have said no...

and that seems to be what boj here is pointing out. [/quote]
She could've said no, but God knew she wouldn't have. Considering He sees into the future.

[cmotherofpirl]

God is outside of time so of course He knew whats she would say.

[Katholikos]

God exists outside time. He created time and placed us in it.

We experience time serially. Time is the measure of change. We "come to know" as time unfolds, one millisecond after another.

For God, there is no time. With Him, the past, present, and future are one immediate NOW. He "knows" -- not because he predestined it, or because he preordained it, or because he could see into the future, but because he apprehends the whole of creation NOW. He does not experience events in the universe eon after eon, or century after century, or year after year, or day after day, but all at once. He does not "see" back into the past, or forward into the future. He exists in the immediate NOW.

Thus He knew from all eternity that Mary would be a virgin dedicated to Him from childhood and that she would say "Yes" to His invitation, delivered by the Angel Gabriel, to be the Mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Eternity is not time stretching out into infinity. It is no time at all. That's where God lives.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 5 2004, 06:32 PM'] God exists outside time. He created time and placed us in it.

We experience time serially. Time is the measure of change. We "come to know" as time unfolds, one millisecond after another.

For God, there is no time. With Him, the past, present, and future are one immediate NOW. He "knows" -- not because he predestined it, or because he preordained it, or because he could see into the future, but because he apprehends the whole of creation NOW. He does not experience events in the universe eon after eon, or century after century, or year after year, or day after day, but all at once. He does not "see" back into the past, or forward into the future. He exists in the immediate NOW.

Thus He knew from all eternity that Mary would be a virgin dedicated to Him from childhood and that she would say "Yes" to His invitation, delivered by the Angel Gabriel, to be the Mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Eternity is not time stretching out into infinity. It is no time at all. That's where God lives. [/quote]
Nice

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]"Evangelium vitae
Ioannes Paulus PP. II
1995 03 25
IntraText SC - Text[/b]

CONCLUSION
"A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun" (Rev 12:1): the motherhood of Mary and of the Church

"A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun" (Rev 12:1): the motherhood of Mary and of the Church

103. The mutual relationship between the mystery of the Church and Mary appears clearly in the "great portent" described in the Book of Rev- elation: "A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (12:1). In this sign the Church recognizes an image of her own mystery: present in history, she knows that she transcends history, inasmuch as she constitutes on earth the "seed and beginning" of the Kingdom of God. 139 The Church sees this mystery fulfilled in complete and exemplary fashion in Mary. She is the woman of glory in whom God's plan could be carried out with supreme perfection.

The "woman clothed with the sun"-the Book of Revelation tells us-"was with child" (12:2). The Church is fully aware that she bears within herself the Saviour of the world, Christ the Lord. She is aware that she is called to offer Christ to the world, giving men and women new birth into God's own life. But the Church cannot forget that her mission was made possible by the motherhood of Mary, who conceived and bore the One who is "God from God", "true God from true God". Mary is truly the Mother of God, the Theotokos, in whose motherhood the vocation to motherhood bestowed by God on every woman is raised to its highest level. Thus Mary becomes the model of the Church, called to be the "new Eve", the mother of believers, the mother of the "living" (cf. Gen 3:20).

The Church's spiritual motherhood is only achieved-the Church knows this too-through the pangs and "the labour" of childbirth (cf. Rev 12:2), that is to say, in constant tension with the forces of evil which still roam the world and affect human hearts, offering resistance to Christ: "In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it" (Jn 1:4-5).

[b]Like the Church, Mary too had to live her motherhood amid suffering: "This child is set ... for a sign that is spoken against-and a sword will pierce through your own soul also-that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed" (Lk 2:34-35). The words which Simeon addresses to Mary at the very beginning of the Saviour's earthly life sum up and prefigure the rejection of Jesus, and with him of Mary, a rejection which will reach its culmination on Calvary. [u]"Standing by the cross of Jesus" (Jn 19:25), Mary shares in the gift which the Son makes of himself: she offers Jesus, gives him over, and begets him to the end for our sake. The "yes" spoken on the day of the Annunciation reaches full maturity on the day of the Cross, when the time comes for Mary to receive and beget as her children all those who become disciples, pouring out upon them the saving love of her Son: "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ?Woman, behold, your son!' " (Jn 19:26)."[/b][/u]

Thought this would give good understanding of Our Savior Jesus and Our Mother Mary's relationship on Calvary and thier role in the Church.

God Bless
Jason

I posted this in a different thread but I think it will help explain somethings!
Peace

[HomeTeamFamily]

mary having the choice to say no.......and choosing to say yes......is free will

regardless of if God knew she would say yes or know.....He did not force His will on her.....she still had the choice, thus preserving her free will

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='lankyswimmer' date='May 5 2004, 10:37 PM'] mary having the choice to say no.......and choosing to say yes......is free will

regardless of if God knew she would say yes or know.....He did not force His will on her.....she still had the choice, thus preserving her free will [/quote]
I agree. True love is an act of the free will of total self giving