How Is Mary Related To My Salvation?

[Dave]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2004, 04:48 PM'] devotion to Mary isn't dogmatically defined, but it's clearly necessary....

Saint John Eudes said this quote, so it's gotta be true....

Limbo isn't taught ex cathedra, but it's obviously true....

church authority and history is more important in this matter than scripture....

we must be elevated by intermediaries....by the saints and Mary, but not Jesus!??!.....


sorry, this doesn't fly with me. [/quote]
1. Devotion to Mary isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation, but heck, with Mary praying for us (and we need all the prayers we can get on the road to heaven), it sure does help!

2. Limbo is actually NOT a doctrine of the Church, nor has it ever been one. It's been a popular explanation of where the souls of unbaptized babies go, but it's never been doctrine at any level.

3. Church authority, history, and scripture go together. No one is saying one is more important than the other. But they all have to be understood in light of each other.

4. Being elevated by intermediaries doesn't ignore the role of Jesus. As I said earlier, we need all the prayers we can get on the road to salvation. Just as you'd probably ask lots of people on earth to pray for you on your road to salvation.

[mulls]

tell amarkich, i was pointing out the inconsistantcies in his post.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Andrew Bobola' date='May 20 2004, 12:26 AM'] Lest we forget one of Mary's titles is Mediatrix of Grace. Mary is the vessel through which all grace flows. I sincerely believe that to obtain heaven one must have a great devotion to the Blessed Mother. I mean, who holds more power over a man that his mother? The Blessed Virgin is the one human whom God raised above the rest and chose to be fit for His only Son to Redeem us. So Through the birth of the Savior comes redemption, and by that same vessel i.e. Mary, comes redemption. [/quote]
whoa whoa whoa...

this is what I mean...

NOT ABLE TO ATTAIN heaven without Mary??!?!

that is SOOO unbiblical...

and are you also implying that Mary has some kind of power over Christ?

sorry...people here just keep adding to why I will never be under the authority of the Catholic Church.

your humbly dumb protestant in Christ and the Triune God,

the lumberjack.

[mulls]

"I mean, who holds more power over a man that his mother?"




did Mary hold power over Jesus while He was creating the earth as we know it?

[Aloysius]

mulls, Jesus in humility submitted Himself to Mary becoming her son. She held power ever Him because He chose to allow that. He fulfilled the law, and obeyed His father and mother. His father and mother held power over Him because He wanted it that way. His mother held more power over him because He chose it that way, He chose for only her to be involved in His coming down from Heaven. St. Joseph was not biologically his father, so he thus held less power over Him.

lumberjack, The reason we cannot attain heaven without Mary is that through Mary Jesus came into the world. Now, Jesus is God, and God is unchanging and eternal forever. If He came from Heaven to the world once through Mary, then the next time He wants to come to the Earth to save a soul why would He change His mind and decide to come without Mary. He grants His graces through Mary. That is why He made her our mother, so that we would know He intends to care for us through her. He desired to gather us up as a mother hen gathers her chickens [i]St Matthew 23:37[/i]... He is going to gather us up through our Mother.

now, Mary is your mother if you are a Christian whether you like it or not. Through her graces flow to you as well.

Edited May 20, 2004 by Aloysius

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 20 2004, 11:39 AM'] lumberjack, The reason we cannot attain heaven without Mary is that through Mary Jesus came into the world. Now, Jesus is God, and God is unchanging and eternal forever. If He came from Heaven to the world once through Mary, then the next time He wants to come to the Earth to save a soul why would He change His mind and decide to come without Mary. He grants His graces through Mary. That is why He made her our mother, so that we would know He intends to care for us through her. He desired to gather us up as a mother hen gathers her chickens [i]St Matthew 23:37[/i]... He is going to gather us up through our Mother.

now, Mary is your mother if you are a Christian whether you like it or not. Through her graces flow to you as well. [/quote]
absolutely not. Mary has absolutely nothing to do with my salvation in Christ. She gave birth to the Messaiah and raised Him, and she did her job well... and God bless her for that.

how much ministry did she do with Him?

how many times was SHE up on the hill preaching?

how many people did SHE heal or cure of demons?

how many lepers or blind people did she cure?

did she bring these people in front of Christ that He might heal them?

no.

therefore, she does NOT bring ME any closer to Christ.

oh, and one thing,

its commonly pointed to John 19:25

Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.)

to say that this wife of Cleophas was the mother Joses and James and the others, when in fact, Cleophas was James the lesser ( in the spelling of this word _h_ is inserted by mistake from Latin MSS.), rather Cleopas, which is the Greek form of the word, while Clopas is the Aramaic form. In Jhn 19:25 the Authorized Version reads, "Mary, the wife of Clopas." The word "wife" is conjecturally inserted here. If "wife" is rightly inserted, then Mary was the mother of James the Less, and Clopas is the same as Alphaeus)

....but in the earlier verses, like

[quote]Matthew 27:56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.[/quote]

there is mention of 3 women, but NONE are referenced as Clopas wife...

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[quote]Mar 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;[/quote]

again, Mary, the mother of James and Joses, but no wife of Clopas

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[quote]Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.[/quote]

and again, Mary Magdlene, and Mary, the other's mothers... not the wife of Cleophas...or Clopas...or James the lesser.

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Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

same

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Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

and voila.


so, alyosius or anyone else...where else is this wife of Cleophas mentioned? where else is the mother of Zebedee's kids mention, and by name?

God bless...

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]Luke 1:39-55[/b]

During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah,

where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,

[b]cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. [/b]

[b][u]And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?[/b][/u]

For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

[b][u]Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."[/u][/b]

[b][i][u]And Mary said:[/u][/i][/b] "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;

my spirit rejoices in God my savior.

[b]For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness;[u] behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.[/b][/u]

The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.

He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.

He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.

The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty.

He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,

according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever."[/quote]

LJ explain these verses for me.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]Luke 2:16-35[/b]
So they went in haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the infant lying in the manger.

When they saw this, they made known the message that had been told them about this child.

All who heard it were amazed by what had been told them by the shepherds.

[b][u]And Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart.[/b] [/u]

Then the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, just as it had been told to them.

When eight days were completed for his circumcision, he was named Jesus, the name given him by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

When the days were completed for their purification according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord,

just as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord,"

and to offer the sacrifice of "a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons," in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord.

Now there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. This man was righteous and devout, awaiting the consolation of Israel, and the holy Spirit was upon him.

[b]It had been revealed to him by the holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Messiah of the Lord.

He came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to perform the custom of the law in regard to him,[/b]

he took him into his arms and blessed God, saying:

"Now, Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word,

for my eyes have seen your salvation,

which you prepared in sight of all the peoples,

a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and glory for your people Israel."

The child's father and mother were amazed at what was said about him;

[b]and Simeon blessed them [u]and said to Mary his mother[/u], "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted [/b]

[b][u](and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."[/b][/u] [/quote]

I need more help LJ explain these?

[the lumberjack]

no jason, you unexplain the verses and references I made.

then I will get to yours.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 20 2004, 04:01 PM'] no jason, you unexplain the verses and references I made.

then I will get to yours. [/quote]
I insist, you first please and thank you

Pax
Jason

[Aloysius]

i never quite understood the wife of clopsas controversy but let me see

[quote][b]The King James Version John 19:25[/b]
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, F38 and Mary Magdalene.  [/quote]

[quote][b]The Douay Rheims Bible St. John 19:25[/b]
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.[/quote]

okay, Mary of Cleophas is Jesus' Aunt, the sister of Mary the mother of Jesus

so you're saying that Mary of Cleophas means Mary mother of James the lesser? umm.. okay.. what does that proove? i don't understand. please tell me if i'm missing your point, but it clearly says
there stood by the cross of Jesus:
1 His Mother
2 His Mother's Sister, Mary of Cleophas
3 Mary Magdalan

And struggling to speak with His dying words He said "John, behold, your mother" and "Mary, behold, your son"

You've clearly prooven to me that Mary's sister who is also named Mary was the mother of James the lesser, and thus shown to me that James the lesser is Jesus' cousin, did you not? Please explain if i'm missing your point...

[Aloysius]

JASON!!!!!!

charity and respect please, he asked his questions first.

thank you.

Pax Amorque Christi

[Livin_the_MASS]

I'm sorry LJ if that was uncharitable, I was just teasing you a little bit

Since Al answered already do you still want an answer from me or do you want to look at the Scripture that I posted?

God Bless You
Jason