Rights Vs. Morals

[Papist]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1319546661' post='2326792']
Right. But it 'says a lot about' me to infer that your religion is the reason for your stand about which vices need to be stomped out of society.
[/quote]
How I formed my reasoning is not relevant. You must take my reasoning at face value. Don't let your prejudice form yours.

[dominicansoul]

It's not the government's business to tell people how to behave. It is the Church's business. Here is an article from the Washington Post, which I found very intriguing. If we Catholics celebrated our faith and lived it fully in all aspects of our lives, we could start a revolution in our society with far greater results than if the government made laws prohibiting people from bad behavior...



[quote]
[b] [size=5]No sex on campus?[/size][/b]

[size=5]By [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/asma-uddin/2011/03/25/AFvRlhkC_page.html"][color=#0c4790]Asma Uddin[/color][/url] and Ashley McGuire[/size]


[size=5]Cardinal Hall at Catholic University of America, Brookland neighborhood, Washington. Another school year is in full swing. Frat houses around the country are once again swollen with partygoers and intoxicated youth. Sunday mornings once again mark the regret of thousands of young women who hooked-up the night prior and either cannot remember what they did, or do remember and are trying to forget.[/size]

[size=5]Another hook-up season is in full swing.[/size]

[size=5]But this hook-up season, there is an increasing phenomenon of unlikely bedfellows opting out: Catholic and Muslim women. These women of faith are increasingly allied in searching for a different way to live out their college tenure than from dorm room to dorm room. And they are finding that despite theological differences that run deep, shared perspectives about modesty, chastity, and dignity run deeper.[/size]

[size=5]At Georgetown, the [color=#0c4790]Muslim Interest Living Community (MILC),[/color] originally “designed to create a strong support group for Muslims and non-Muslims who want to be steadfast in prayer and in their commitment to campus building and cooperation,” provides a haven for students seeking an escape from alcohol and hook-ups. In years past, up to half of its residents have been non-Muslim. Noreen Shaikh, a resident of the MILC, says the community offers “an alternative way to spend Friday and Saturday nights outside the realm of parties and clubs.”[/size]

[size=5][url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2010/12/19/GR2010121904584.html"][color=#0c4790]Muslim enrollment at Catholic universities [/color][/url]is surging. At[url="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304432304576369843592242356.html"][color=#0c4790] Catholic University, which just recently reinstated same-sex dormitories[/color][/url] and where the school administration has been very vocal in opposing binge drinking and premarital sex, Muslim enrollment has doubled in just four years. Nationwide, the growth in percent of Muslim freshman students at Catholic colleges and universities is significantly outpacing that of enrollment at secular schools. As one female [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2010/12/19/GR2010121904584.html"][color=#0c4790]Muslim student at Catholic University put it, “They have the same values we do.”[/color][/url][/size]
[size=5]Sarah Mumma, a devout Catholic and recent graduate of Northwestern University, affiliated herself closely with the [url="http://groups.northwestern.edu/mcsa/about/"][color=#0c4790]Muslim Cultural Student Association[/color][/url] during her time there. In her view, rooming with Muslim girls was a “haven amid the hookup culture and the pervasive dismissal of chastity as backwards, or even sinister.” She found that not only did she share with these Muslim women abstinence as a lifestyle, but found they shared other values in common. “Smart, well connected and serious Muslim girls I met in college became some of my best friends.”[/size]

[size=5]Sajda Ouachtouki, a member of the[url="http://rlc.princeton.edu/"][color=#0c4790] Religious Life Council at Princeton University[/color][/url], voices similar sentiments about her close Catholic friends, “I find that I share much in common with these friends and often find myself turning to them in times of inner struggle. Their morals and notions of self-respect weave a special bond between us.”[/size]

[size=5][url="http://groups.northwestern.edu/mcsa/about/"][color=#0c4790]Statistics show that as many as 78 percent of women will engage in a hook-up at some point during their college tenure[/color][/url], 14 percent of whom will rely on a friend to tell them what happened the next day,[url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_37/ai_61636087/pg_6/"][color=#0c4790] 49 percent of whom will never see the partner again[/color][/url], and [url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_37/ai_61636087/pg_6/"][color=#0c4790]16 percent of whom felt pressured into the sexual encounter[/color][/url]. In a given year, roughly[url="http://groups.northwestern.edu/mcsa/about/"][color=#0c4790] 97,000 cases of college campus sexual assault or date rape related to binge drinking are reported. [/color][/url]Another 100,000 college students annually report being too drunk to know if they consented to having sex.[/size]

[size=5]For many women of faith on college campuses, not only is such behavior a direct violation of their faith, it is the degradation of women, plain and simple. Not only are Catholic and Muslim women increasingly sharing the experience of rejecting the college culture of sexual excess, but they find common ground in the empowerment that chastity offers as an alternative. So while Muslim and Catholic women may say different prayers each night as they prepare for bed, they are united in relishing that their bed (and their dignity) is theirs and theirs alone[/size].[/quote]




I especially like the last sentence.


[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/altmuslimah/post/no-sex-on-campus/2011/10/20/gIQA5ZWy1L_blog.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/altmuslimah/post/no-sex-on-campus/2011/10/20/gIQA5ZWy1L_blog.html[/url]

[4588686]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1319547837' post='2326794']
How I formed my reasoning is not relevant. You must take my reasoning at face value. Don't let your prejudice form yours.
[/quote]


You haven't presented any reasoning to speak of. You objected to me pointing out how absurd it is for you to attempt to impose limitations on the liberty of you fellow citizens because of the dictates of your unproven religious beliefs by objecting to me assuming that you derived these political positions from your religious faith. When J_Lol pointed to a possible origin of some of those beliefs you objected to any political classification on the grounds that your relevant identity, on the matter of the formation of national or state public policy, was not a secular political ideology but your religion.

You haven't responded to the content of my argument you just objected to an assumption I made about the origins of your political preferences, only to later affirm my assumption, only to then object when your affirmation was pointed out. You aren't debating rationally, your bobbing and weaving.

I don't have any prejudice against your religious faith. I want to government to protect your right to practice your religion. I merely pointed out that it is not only unproven but there is a fair bit of seemingly contradictory evidence regarding that faith. If you are so sensitive that you think that that very reasonable assertion constitutes 'prejudice' then you should stay off the debate table. I have no problem with you believing that homosexual acts are immoral. You can hate gay people for all I care. I only care when you attempt to impose your irrational (not supported by rational argument, not a pejorative) beliefs on other people.

[Papist]

[color=#222222]
[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1319558114' post='2326861'][/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
You haven't presented any reasoning to speak of. You objected to me pointing out how absurd it is for you to attempt to impose limitations on the liberty of you fellow citizens because of the dictates of your unproven religious beliefs by objecting to me assuming that you derived these political positions from your religious faith. When J_Lol pointed to a possible origin of some of those beliefs you objected to any political classification on the grounds that your relevant identity, on the matter of the formation of national or state public policy, was not a secular political ideology but your religion. [/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
You haven't responded to the content of my argument you just objected to an assumption I made about the origins of your political preferences, only to later affirm my assumption, only to then object when your affirmation was pointed out. You aren't debating rationally, your bobbing and weaving. [/color]
[color=#222222]
[/color]
[color=#222222]
I don't have any prejudice against your religious faith. I want to government to protect your right to practice your religion. I merely pointed out that it is not only unproven but there is a fair bit of seemingly contradictory evidence regarding that faith. If you are so sensitive that you think that that very reasonable assertion constitutes 'prejudice' then you should stay off the debate table. I have no problem with you believing that homosexual acts are immoral. You can hate gay people for all I care. I only care when you attempt to impose your irrational (not supported by rational argument, not a pejorative) beliefs on other people.[/color]
[color=#222222]
[/quote][/color]

I did not inject God, religion, faith or any of the like into my posts. Others did, which is very telling. It is very interesting some people put so much weight on the other's faith background when evaluating the content of what they said. If I was an atheist, then you would be agreeing with me?

[4588686]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1319561595' post='2326881']

If I was an atheist, then you would be agreeing with me?
[/quote]

Nope. And my argument against you would be structurally almost identical albeit some of the content would be adapted for an atheist seeking to irrationally impose his arbitrary moral standards on his fellow citizens.

[stevil]

[quote name='Eternal CB' timestamp='1319543971' post='2326787']
That reward for Heaven, [b]encourages[/b] them to act selflessly
[/quote]
This statement is an oxymoron.
Do you think a Christian acts selflessly when they point to the gays and tell them they are sinners, then continuously try to let them know the errors of their ways and use government to put barriers in the way of the love of gays?
Do you think a Christian acts selflessly when they use government to put barriers in the way of terminally ill, suffering patients who wish for an end.

[quote name='Eternal CB' timestamp='1319543971' post='2326787']
That does seem cruel. But, that member should understand what being a part of the Catholic Church is about
...this would have resulted in his rejection of that love for that man, and ultimately the [b]full[/b] acceptance of the member from the Church.
[/quote]
So are you saying that the Church is an anti love group, that they encourage their members to reject love and instead embrace the Church? Oh happy joy, what a wonderful church.

[quote name='Eternal CB' timestamp='1319543971' post='2326787']
I never asked what you disagreed on, I asked you why do you disagree.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, like the gay man wanting some love and respect from the church, we don't always get what we ask for.
I'm sorry, but a person with half a brain can work out the why from my list of whats.

[fides' Jack]

Hm - there are no victimless immoral acts. All immoral acts hurt the One we should most avoid hurting: God.

[stevil]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1319573378' post='2326959']
Hm - there are no victimless immoral acts. All immoral acts hurt the One we should most avoid hurting: God.
[/quote]
Not everyone believes in your god.
If you believe that your god is all powerful, then this god cannot be hurt and certainly does not need some humans to protect it.

[Eternal CB]

[quote]
This statement is an oxymoron.
Do you think a Christian acts selflessly when they point to the gays and tell them they are sinners, then continuously try to let them know the errors of their ways and use government to put barriers in the way of the love of gays?
Do you think a Christian acts selflessly when they use government to put barriers in the way of terminally ill, suffering patients who wish for an end.
[/quote]

Some Christians do that, but a true Christian is one who does love others and would pray for those homosexuals. Homosexuals, in Christianity are accepted, however when they act on their sexual tendencies that is when their actions become unacceptable. But, homosexuals always have the option (in the Catholic Church) to be reconciled through the Sacrament of Confession. Why do you think a Christian does this? Is it to degrade the homosexual? No. Rather, it is to correct his/her actions so they can be perfect for God and so that homosexual can be saved from Hell. Despite your disbelief in these things, these are the motives behind it - true Christians don't want people burning in an eternal pit of fire.

In a situation of euthanasia, a Christian becomes selfless when they devote their time to spending it with that person who is terminally ill. So as to allow that person to enjoy some part of the rest of their life.

[quote]
So are you saying that the Church is an anti love group, that they encourage their members to reject love and instead embrace the Church? Oh happy joy, what a wonderful church.
[/quote]

Embracing the Church results in the embracing of love. The Church encourages us to think about our actions and how they affect others. The Church opens our minds to think of others first before ourselves. The Church encourages us to think about the terrible situations some people are in, and causes them to rally and pray for those people. The Church encourages charitable causes and acts etc. So the Church is an all for love organisation.

[quote]
Unfortunately, like the gay man wanting some love and respect from the church, we don't always get what we ask for.
I'm sorry, but a person with half a brain can work out the why from my list of whats.
[/quote]

My friend the Church isn't the most important thing of Catholicism. The most important thing is a connection and relationship with God in Heaven. The Church allows for this connection to become stronger through the creation of institutes and communities. Therefore, if you were to open your heart to God, the only thing you would find is love and respect. The Church isn't full of saints, its full of sinners all striving to perfection. Go to the head of the Church: God.

[Selah]

[quote]
Do you think a Christian acts selflessly when they point to the gays and tell them they are sinners, then continuously try to let them know the errors of their ways and use government to put barriers in the way of the love of gays?
[/quote]

"He who sees his own sins does not see the sins of others" - St. Moses the Black

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1319561595' post='2326881']



I did not inject God, religion, faith or any of the like into my posts. Others did, which is very telling. It is very interesting some people put so much weight on the other's faith background when evaluating the content of what they said. If I was an atheist, then you would be agreeing with me?
[/quote]

On a catholic forum talking to a catholic, it would be fairly pointless to assume that their views are not at least religiously informed. I dont know what you are getting at with the "Which is very telling" you seem to put into every post, I can assure you that if i say i disagree with you, then It is because i find your opinions to be flawed, not because you are catholic.

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1319573378' post='2326959']
Hm - there are no victimless immoral acts. All immoral acts hurt the One we should most avoid hurting: God.
[/quote]

And God has enacted his own rules, and a church for that. secular government is not obligated to act as a police force for the church.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1319565366' post='2326901']

Nope. And my argument against you would be structurally almost identical albeit some of the content would be adapted for an atheist seeking to irrationally impose his arbitrary moral standards on his fellow citizens.[/quote]well, at least you admit your morals are arbitrary.I feel like this is a step in the right direction for you

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319538682' post='2326766']


Without critical thought. An example would be a Church forsaking a lifetime member, who actively supported and financially gave to his church only to be forsaken in death with denial of a funeral service because [b]he loved a person that the Church did not approve of[/b]. It was [b]his love that the church disapproves[/b] of and hence disowns him for. Whom did he love to spark such a reaction? A murderer?, A molesterer?, A monster?

No, it was a man.
[/quote]

This is a steaming pile of the essence of cow. Love is never a bad thing, but sex is not an appropriate expression of love in every case. Even YOU believe this at the very least in the case of children. It's ok and even admirable to love children, not ok to engage in sex with them. And I hope you're against incest even if both parties are of age and the magic word "consent" is applied. Catholics (and many other people religious and secular alike) extend this rule beyond these cases (polygamy, adultery, fornication . . . and gets narrower and narrower as we go on).

I think it's great, admirable, and honorable if two men truly love each other, but a sexual expression between them is never affirming of that love and thus is not appropriate. You may disagree, but don't go on this "the church is anti-love" tripe. plz n ty

[stevil]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1319609904' post='2327179']

This is a steaming pile of the essence of cow. Love is never a bad thing, but sex is not an appropriate expression of love in every case. Even YOU believe this at the very least in the case of children. It's ok and even admirable to love children, not ok to engage in sex with them. And I hope you're against incest even if both parties are of age and the magic word "consent" is applied. Catholics (and many other people religious and secular alike) extend this rule beyond these cases (polygamy, adultery, fornication . . . and gets narrower and narrower as we go on).

I think it's great, admirable, and honorable if two men truly love each other, but a sexual expression between them is never affirming of that love and thus is not appropriate. You may disagree, but don't go on this "the church is anti-love" tripe. plz n ty
[/quote]
I'm OK with incest as long as both parties are willing and of appropriate age. I am not one to judge.

I am most certainly OK with polygamy, adultery and fornication. Although of course I hope that my wife doesn't cheat on me, I would like to feel that our intimacy is somewhat special.

When my wife (girlfriend at the time) and I progressed to a physically intimate relationship it seemed very natural at the time, and helped to break a lot of personal barriers. It was certainly an escalation and expression of love and lust. I cannot understand why anyone would feel they have the right to tell consenting adults that their expression of love and lust is wrong. Why can't some Christians keep their opinions to themselves and simply lead a virtuous life rather than worrying about the "sins" of strangers? Judge not least ye be judged. Read your book, take on its teachings and live your life, not the life of others!

Edited October 26, 2011 by stevil

[Oremoose]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319565612' post='2326904']
This statement is an oxymoron.
Do you think a Christian acts selflessly when they point to the gays and tell them they are sinners, then continuously try to let them know the errors of their ways and use government to put barriers in the way of the love of gays?
[/quote]

Just because it's an oxymoron does not makes it untrue. I do not act with the thought of reward in heaven, When I try to act in a selfless manner I only think of the good I am doing for others and how it's them. Also I point at everyone (including myself) and say they are sinners. No human is perfect and letting people know thier errors is one of the best ways to help people better themselves. And all I ask of gays is, not that they don't love, but that they don't show that thier love and act on thier love as if it is equal to nongays. Why becuase I find it distrurbing since it is not natural.