The Wedding Dress Orders (For Us Romantics)

[Chiquitunga]

Praised be Jesus Christ! I was researching a little more for this thread regarding the recent norms given, quoted above, for the Rite of Initiation into Religious Life (aka, clothing, investiture) 

 

The original document with these norms was the Ordo Professionis Religiosae published in 1970. (found that here)

 

"Before giving the ritual of temporary and perpetual profession, the Ordo gives the ritual for entrance into the novitiate." (page 292)

 

quoting again from that book, a page up

 

"Until the appearance of the Ordo professionis religiosae, the various religious orders and congregations all used rituals of their own that were more or less original and connected with their manner of life. The Ordo professionis religiosae, which was promulgated on February 7, 1970, does not intend simply to do away with these rituals. It is presented rather as a normative blueprint that is to be respected but that also allows for many adaptions."

 

And I found a similar statement here, "Indeed, as the new liturgical law directs, this book makes constant reference to the Roman Ordo Professionis Religiosae (“Order of Religious Profession”), adapting elements of that order to itself, using the freedom that is allowed to the individual religious families"  

 

So that seems to explain why some communities do not follow exactly the norms given by the Ordo. This also makes sense in light of what Gracian has said he has learned from his correspondence with different OCD Prioresses - that after VII individual Carmels were given the freedom to write up their own Ceremonies and Rituals. 

 

 

One more quick post on this for now... I meant to add, there is a footnote referenced after the second statement I quoted there which is: 

 

SCCD, Indicationes pro Ordine professionis religiosae aptando (“Indications for adapting the Order of religious profession”), made public law in the French language on July 15, 1970: “Notitiae” 6, 1970, pp. 319-322 and EDIL I, pp. 697-701.

 

It seems to be a separate document/supplement to the Ordo published soon after. If I ever get any more clarifications on this, I will post it. :like:

Edited July 26, 2013 by Chiquitunga

[Chiquitunga]

 

 

 

just noticed they were never posted here yet ~ http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/129636-religious-of-the-sacred-heart-of-florence/

[Chiquitunga]

quick thought I wanted to add here for now. I honestly am not posting here in relation to the current discussion in the Bride of Christ thread, in case it may come across that way, but I have seriously been intending to post several things here for a few weeks now and they've been floating around in my head ever since! I feel like need to get them out before I take a PM break for a while to attend to an immediate project going on in my life, as I was saying in the other thread. I hope to get back here later tonight though to post the rest of everything I've been wanting to, and then take my break :like: God bless!

[Lumiere]

 

 

 

just noticed they were never posted here yet ~ http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/129636-religious-of-the-sacred-heart-of-florence/

 

I believe the young woman in those photos is Annie Heyne who is is a graduate of the University of Dallas and a MFA graduate from the New York Academy of Art. She sold her artwork to pay off her debt so she could enter.

 

Some of her story is here.

 

This seems to be what Madre Annie Heyne is doing now.

 

 

[Chiquitunga]

oh my goodness! that is so wonderful to hear! :) I'm going to post that in the thread on them, thank you!! 

[MarysLittleFlower]

wow, how wonderful to see her journey! :D

Edited July 27, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Chiquitunga]

okay, this one I have been meaning to post over a month. I am honestly usually not a big fan of overly emotional songs, this is one is so beautiful.... http://www.cifras.com.br/cifra/missionario-shalom/belissimo-esposo/  :heart:

 

these are the Traditional Carmelite Hermits in Brazil ~ http://carmelotradicional.blogspot.com/  they use the wedding dress. inperpetuity wrote a little about them here

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWm9Ye7FpD4

[Chiquitunga]

going through the thread, I noticed this post of Iggy's (miss her!) and wanted to highlight it again

 

Sometimes someone will post on Phatmass that the posters are being very superficial and worldly to be thinking about things like wedding dresses, crowns of flowers, and wedding rings. Personally, since so many of us started thinking about (or even planning!) our weddings at a young age, (I don't know what it's like for little girls now) it seems natural to me to talk about it now. (Funny, even though I'd never met a nun or religious Sister in my life, I wore my petticoat (now THAT dates me!) or a towel on my head alternatively as a nun or a bride, depending on my mood.)

What happened? As I grew out of the stage of wearing petticoats on my head, my parents were in the process of changing from being very religious to agnositics to (in my father's case) atheists. Also, I had no Catholic friends until college, and I liked boys too much to imagine living without one. As I got a little older (and actually married a Catholic guy who had been in minor seminary), I realized that, realistically, the vow of obedience was a "mountain" in the way--I had no desire to be obedient, and it's not really different now. (There were far more very religious people at Berkeley than most people expect--but there were very few people, even among the religious ones--who could even imagine obedience. LOL)

The answer I give to people who think that discerners/aspirants should not be even thinking about such things, is that, as far as I know, NO discerner/aspirant who has posted on Phatmass has chosen an Order solely because it has things like wedding dresses and crowns of flowers. Also, I know of LOTS of posters who have admitted that they would love to wear a wedding dress or a crown of flowers, but joined an Order/Community even knowing they would not have those things. God's calling to a particular Order/Community was FAR more important than a wedding dress. These are fun threads, and interesting subjects to talk about--many of us enjoy them. However, I feel very comfortrable that the vast majority of Phatmass women in discernment/aspirancy have their values in order and I see no harm in these conversations.

:like:

[nikita92]

I noticed that none of these so called bridal communities wear their hair in the "updo"style. (I appreciate the formal bridal look such as Princess Grace. If I'm wearing a long sleeve wedding dress in a church.. A updo just seems to compliment it)

[Chiquitunga]

Elizabeth did :heart:

I have never seen this picture of Blessed Elizabeth so large and clear before!

 

 

This is from a site of Discalced Carmelites in Sicily ~ http://www.carmelosicilia.it/mostra%20fotografica%202.htm It is picture # 54 here. They did a nice job adapting the lighting. So great to see this!

 

 

To be the Bride of Christ ~ http://carmelourladysdovecote.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/bl-elizabeth-of-the-trinitys-to-be-the-mystical-bride-of-christ/   :heart:

 

 

and it looks like Chiqui in my profile did too :like:

[Chiquitunga]

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/116361-the-wedding-dress-orders-for-us-romantics/page-20

 

it maybe especially since it's the last day that can have long hair, they wear it down, especially for Poor Clares since the cutting of the hair is part of the ceremony. for Carmelites it's done later.

[Chiquitunga]

I meant to post way back... here is Sr. Marie-Angélique of Jesus (1893-1919) who was at the Carmel in Pontoise, France. She is similar to Blessed Elizabeth in that she was an excellent pianist & spent 5 years in Carmel, dying at the age of 26. I am not sure if there is a process going for her canonization, but I am guessing there must be. She is often named with the other great French Discalced Carmelite Nuns, like in this painting of a vision Madame Acarie (Blessed Marie of the Incarnation) had of St. Teresa.

 

 

Sr. Marie-Angélique is farthest to the right

 

I copied this from this book Flame of Joy on her (out of print) on her clothing... I was going to post this especially a few weeks ago in relation to the discussion about when the custom of the wedding dress may have begun and how it seems to have been around the French Revolution, especially when they had big ceremonies, where the postulants would leave and re-enter in their dresses. This is would it was for St. Therese.

 

"Marie Angélique received the habit July 29, 1914, in a closed and almost empty chapel ... Contrary to the ceremonial of the time, the postulant remained in the cloister, for the hostility of her parents gave rise to fear of a violent intervention on their part ...The private character of the ceremony allowing departure from the stylish mode of the times, the nuns lovingly adapted the crisp white veil to the virginal type of their little Sister and in her angelic-tunic with the large sleeves, Marie Angélique looked as though she had stepped down from the frescoes of Fra Angelico.

 

Her state of soul from the time preceding her retreat was characterized by "such a desire for the possession of God" that she confided she was almost never distracted. This vehememnt desire literally tore her away, causing her real suffering, and sometimes became "so violent that she could hardly prevent its being noticed externally."

 

Then in response to this desire, Our Lord granted her a strong and sensible grace of union. But the "Thabor of her Clothing" lasted only a day." 

 

 

 

 

from her Profession day, 1918

 

 

 

 

 

http://louangedesagloire.blogspot.com/2009/08/my-joy-is-love-of-god.html

 

http://louangedesagloire.blogspot.com/2010/04/coming-soon-flame-of-joy.html

 

http://louangedesagloire.blogspot.com/2010/10/martyr-of-filial-respect.html

 

http://louangedesagloire.blogspot.com/2010/05/my-soul-never-vibrated-except-for-its.html

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Praised be Jesus Christ! I was researching a little more for this thread regarding the recent norms given, quoted above, for the Rite of Initiation into Religious Life (aka, clothing, investiture) 

 

The original document with these norms was the Ordo Professionis Religiosae published in 1970. (found that here)

 

"Before giving the ritual of temporary and perpetual profession, the Ordo gives the ritual for entrance into the novitiate." (page 292)

 

quoting again from that book, a page up

 

"Until the appearance of the Ordo professionis religiosae, the various religious orders and congregations all used rituals of their own that were more or less original and connected with their manner of life. The Ordo professionis religiosae, which was promulgated on February 7, 1970, does not intend simply to do away with these rituals. It is presented rather as a normative blueprint that is to be respected but that also allows for many adaptions."

 

And I found a similar statement here, "Indeed, as the new liturgical law directs, this book makes constant reference to the Roman Ordo Professionis Religiosae (“Order of Religious Profession”), adapting elements of that order to itself, using the freedom that is allowed to the individual religious families"  

 

So that seems to explain why some communities do not follow exactly the norms given by the Ordo. This also makes sense in light of what Gracian has said he has learned from his correspondence with different OCD Prioresses - that after VII individual Carmels were given the freedom to write up their own Ceremonies and Rituals. 

 

Good job, Chiqui!  This is a well-researched information.  Thank you so much!

 

Before Vatican II, The Holy See imposed a near identical Rites of Religious Profession for all communities to follow.  After Vatican II, each religious institutes and orders were encourage to go back to their sources and examine the charism of their Founder/s or Foundress/es.  What are the "healthy traditions" of the order worth keeping and what traditions needs to be revitalized? 

 

After Vatican II, one has to differentiate an active order from an autonomous cloistered order.  Active Orders or Cloistered Congregation with Superior General tends to follow a uniform Rite of Profession as approved by their respective general councils.  The autonomous monasteries such as Carmels are encourage to formulate their own ceremonial, manual, customary, etc.  The Association or Federation with the consent of its members monasteries can formulate the same documents for their own use.  As such Spanish Carmels came up with their own Ceremonial, thicker than the Pre-Vatican II counterpart.  Unfortunately, my copy is in Spanish and I cannot understand its contents.  Chiqui mentioned that some 1990 Carmels created their own English-speaking Ceremonial but I have not seen one.  A 1990 Prioress in the USA informed me that they just created their own Profession Rites, Customary, etc.

 

It is evident on the current practice that Vatican II allows freedom and flexibility in formulating the Rites of Profession as long as it is approved by the Holy See.

 

For better understanding of Vatican II documents, please read Perfectae Caritatis and Sacrosanctum Consilium.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[truthfinder]

Elizabeth did :heart:

 

 

and it looks like Chiqui in my profile did too :like:

 

 

I'm going to have to say that in these circumstances, I believe it was very cultural.  An adult woman wore her hair up and therefore girls wore their hair down.  (think about Therese, she wore her hair up just to see the bishop and try and convince him that she was old enough to enter Carmel).  

[Antigonos]

I'm going to have to say that in these circumstances, I believe it was very cultural.  An adult woman wore her hair up and therefore girls wore their hair down.  (think about Therese, she wore her hair up just to see the bishop and try and convince him that she was old enough to enter Carmel).  

 

The custom of covering one's hair after marriage began at least as far back as the Middle Ages.  A virgin was supposed to let her hair lie free; but since it was an "allurement", covering it [except for one's husband] became the rule.  Wearing one's hair wound up on the head was also thought a sign of maturity, and even as recently as the Victorian period, when a girl was old enough to put her hair up was a sign she was of marriageable age.  So it doesn't surprise me that at investiture, postulants tend to have their hair down.  And of course, it does make cutting it easier...