Guest Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Jon not to be a jerk but you're living in lala land. Read the Bible. Read the o.t. Look at catholic history. Killing in self defense is very just. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 [quote] Do not resist the evil man but whoever slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the other also. [/quote] I never understood why Jesus said such a thing. The world only knows force and violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 [quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1319076866' post='2324029'] I don't know. Any type of killing, whether it be self defense, "justifiable", or what not, doesn't seem very Christ-like to me. To me it seems like it would be holier and have a more greater outcome in the long run to be martyr for one's faith, than stay living purely by that fact that you killed the other guy first. Who do we venerate more, the security guard or the martyr? I cannot think of any security guards who are saints for just simply "doing there jobs", but I can think of many saints who were martyrs for their faith. If God doesn't want you to die yet, then you won't. Like what happened to John Paul II. Now, Max has a good point. This could just be based off of the ignorance of being someone who lives in safety of freedom. But I could never, in good conscience, carry a personal protection "device" on account that I could never ever force myself to use it. Even if my own life was at stake. As far as saving someone else's life, again I could never in good conscience take another person's life to save someone. What says that one person's life is more valuable than another's? Even if the person you should save is a close friend or relative. Again this could be all ignorance. But the sacredness of all human life is not ignorant. And it is not ignorant to say that all human life is sacred. [/quote] Part 3, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 5 of the Catechism covers this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal CB Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 there are such things as "Militant Saints". One such example is St. Joan of Arc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJon16 Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) [quote] 2258 "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being." [/quote] How's that for quoting the Catechism? hahahaha [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1319070096' post='2323967'] This. Killing out of vengeance is wrong, but neither is it virtuous to stand by and watch your brothers and sisters in Christ get slaughtered and raped. [/quote] That's all fine and well, but what makes your brother's and sister's lives worth more than those who are "slaughtering and raping"? Just because they are your brothers and sisters? That's kinda selfish... Maybe I'm taking the whole "life is sacred" thing a little too far here, but... Is it true that as Christians, we are "little Christs" and we are striving to imitate Christ in every way possible? Did Christ ever try to physically defend Himself? Edited October 20, 2011 by BigJon16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 From what I read, you sound like a pacifist. From what I understand, and I could be wrong, the Church 'makes room' for pacifists while not condemning violent, even deadly force in the immediate defense of life. I tend to lean to the latter, you tend to lean from the former. This is not to say that if I can defend my or brothers' and sisters' life by a well placed bullet to the leg, that I should aim for the head and claim 'self defense' with a coy smile on my face; however, if I must kill to immediately defend life, I will do it all day long and won't think twice about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Didn't Jesus use violence when he chased the moneylenders out of the Temple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 we're not Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1319108825' post='2324141'] From what I read, you sound like a pacifist. From what I understand, and I could be wrong, the Church 'makes room' for pacifists while not condemning violent, even deadly force in the immediate defense of life. I tend to lean to the latter, you tend to lean from the former. This is not to say that if I can defend my or brothers' and sisters' life by a well placed bullet to the leg, that I should aim for the head and claim 'self defense' with a coy smile on my face; however, if I must kill to immediately defend life, I will do it all day long and won't think twice about it. [/quote] Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1319107752' post='2324133'] How's that for quoting the Catechism? hahahaha [/quote] You seem to be struggling with the morality of it, my last post still stands, despite your minimizing of it. Edited October 20, 2011 by Maximilianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I am no moral theologian, but I wonder if the taking of another life to defend your own would not fall under the principle of double effect..... iono..just throwing that out there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Bigjon, your catechism quote specifically mentioned "innocent" human life. Those who rape or murder are not by any definition innocent. ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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