"worldview Differences"

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='May 1 2004, 09:25 PM']
Also, the points raised for argument are (from where I sit) more often directed at Reformed-type denominational distinctives than any other. 

Why do the Reformed people get the brunt of the hostility? (I'm not defending their theology--after all, I disagree with it; I'm just asking--is it because they're the most organized?)


MG[/quote]
It's impossible to give the POV of all -- or even most -- Protestants on any doctrine because of the thousands of denominations. Each denomination differs in one degree or another from every other denomination. And there are thousands of "nondenominational" or "independent" organizations with their unique doctrines. Protestant denominations agree only in one respect: all claim that Luther's 66-book cut version of the Bible is the whole and complete 'Word of God,' although they all interpret it differently.

The Reformed denominations seem to have the most organized theology, because of the writings of John Calvin. Luther and Calvin both left a plethora of documents. And they have been the most influential. Many denominations have Reformed influences in their doctrines, though they may not be strict Calvinists.

I apologize if we have seemed "hostile" in our defense of Catholicism against Protestantism. But the fact is, Catholicism is 2,000 years old and is God-made. Protestantism is not yet 500 years old and is man-made. Many "churches" are less than 50 or 100 years old. And the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and formed the Bible. But certain Protestants (not you, MG!), out of ignorance, misinterpret the Bible and beat us over the head with our own book.

"[i]All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation.[/i]" Melanchthon, Epistles, Book IV, Ep. 100

Have I covered all your Qs? Thanks for the opportunity.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Mickey's_Girl]

[quote]Martin Luther, architect of Protestantism, looked upon a redeemed man as just a "snow-covered dunghill."  He taught that when a man "gets saved," his sins are "covered over by a blanket of the righteousness of Christ," which "blinds" God to man's sinful nature and actual sins, and permits man -- depraved creature that he is -- to pass into heaven.  But man remains just a pile of dung.  This is the basic Protestant worldview, but it varies according to denomination.[/quote]

Dude, that's just not true. Or, let me rephrase: I have never heard of this view of human nature and salvation until I was at college (interdenominational Christian). I know that historically speaking, that was the reformers' original idea (where did they get this? where?) and I will admit to ignorance of most of the doctrinal distinctives of the 11,000 Protestant "denominations" (do they count every "independent" Protestant church? I could probably only name 10 or 12 denoms. offhand...who ARE these people?). But seriously--I thought only Presbyterians and "reformed" denominations believed that "total depravity" idea. I guess Lutherans probably do, too (I plead ignorance).

From the outside looking in, it seems like people are spinning their wheels on this. The massive resistance-to-Catholicism of Reformed theology aside, I just don't think it's accurate to call this the "basic Protestant worldview", esp. when those 11,000 denominations probably ARE just small, "independent" or "Bible-believing" churches.

The very SIZE of Protestantism makes it very, very difficult to accurately state "here's what Protestants teach". And I know Catholics offer this as proof of the capital-T truth of the Catholic church. That's not what I'm arguing about here, though; stay with me.

For instance, a statement from my own denomination's website:

"WE BELIEVE...Sanctification Initially Occurs at Salvation and is not only a declaration that a believer is holy, but also a progressive lifelong process of separating from evil as believers continually draw closer to God and become more Christlike."

[url="http://ag.org/top/beliefs/truths_condensed.cfm"]http://ag.org/top/beliefs/truths_condensed.cfm[/url]

(Bear with the Protestant use of terms, and I'll try to unpack this. )

So, when "salvation" occurs, according to what the Assemblies of God believes, one's sins are completely redeemed. Your old sins are cast away, and God looks at them no more. They're gone, because Jesus paid for them. You are changed into a new creature, and then begin your "walk" with the Lord, in which you (theoretically) grow more and more like Him throughout your life. Martin Luther's dung-hill idea is no part of this, and never has been. Not only that, but it seems to me that the AG is actually closer to Catholics on this than to the Reformed people. But there I could be simplifying.

Okay, enough for now. I have work I have to do. But I have more to say, and will do so later.

Thanks for taking the time, Likos! This is fun.

MG

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='May 2 2004, 02:57 PM']
Dude, that's just not true.  Or, let me rephrase:  I have never heard of this view of human nature and salvation until I was at college (interdenominational Christian).  I know that historically speaking, that was the reformers' original idea (where did they get this?  where?) and I will admit to ignorance of most of the doctrinal distinctives of the 11,000 Protestant "denominations" (do they count every "independent" Protestant church?  I could probably only name 10 or 12 denoms. offhand...who ARE these people?).  But seriously--I thought only Presbyterians and "reformed" denominations believed that "total depravity" idea.  I guess Lutherans probably do, too (I plead ignorance).

From the outside looking in, it seems like people are spinning their wheels on this.  The massive resistance-to-Catholicism of Reformed theology aside, I just don't think it's accurate to call this the "basic Protestant worldview", esp. when those 11,000 denominations probably ARE just small, "independent" or "Bible-believing" churches.

The very SIZE of Protestantism makes it very, very difficult to accurately state "here's what Protestants teach".  And I know Catholics offer this as proof of the capital-T truth of the Catholic church.  That's not what I'm arguing about here, though; stay with me.

For instance, a statement from my own denomination's website:

"WE BELIEVE...Sanctification Initially Occurs at Salvation and is not only a declaration that a believer is holy, but also a progressive lifelong process of separating from evil as believers continually draw closer to God and become more Christlike."

[url="http://ag.org/top/beliefs/truths_condensed.cfm"]http://ag.org/top/beliefs/truths_condensed.cfm[/url]

(Bear with the Protestant use of terms, and I'll try to unpack this. )

So, when "salvation" occurs, according to what the Assemblies of God believes, one's sins are completely redeemed.  Your old sins are cast away, and God looks at them no more.  They're gone, because Jesus paid for them.  You are changed into a new creature, and then begin your "walk" with the Lord, in which you (theoretically) grow more and more like Him throughout your life.  Martin Luther's dung-hill idea is no part of this, and never has been.  Not only that, but it seems to me that the AG is actually closer to Catholics on this than to the Reformed people.  But there I could be simplifying.

Okay, enough for now.  I have work I have to do.    But I have more to say, and will do so later. 

Thanks for taking the time, Likos!  This is fun. 

MG[/quote]
MG, it is one thing for you to say that "you never heard of it" [the Protestant doctrine on justification] and quite another for you to say "Dude, that's just not true." It's true history.

Luther, the founder of Protestantism, taught justification by "imputed righteousness," that is, the covering over of man's essential corruptness (Luther's 'snow-covered dung hill') with the righteousness of Christ -- so that God no longer sees that essential corruptness but sees only the righteousness of Christ. He further taught that all works of the justified man are sinful in themselves on account of the sin remaining in him. (Our sins are "covered" but we remain "unchanged"). Calvin put another twist on it. But that's the history of Protestantism. Everybody gets a turn at twisting the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16). With the advent of Sola Scriptura, all Protestants can (and do) interpret the Scriptures for themselves. But many still hold and teach some variation of this doctrine.

I can recommend the [i]History of Christendom[/i] in several volumes written by Warren H. Carroll, Ph.D. He's a Columbia-trained historian who did the only thing a good historian could do when he learned the truth through his research -- he became a Catholic. He also founded a Catholic college -- Christendom -- rated among the ten best liberal arts colleges in the nation.

What would make the doctrines of the AoG more "true" than Luther's teaching? Or Calvin's? Why do you believe the AoG is right and those who hold Luther's or Calvin's views wrong? Your beliefs are based on yet another interpretation of the same Bible. And the doctrines of the AOG were developed in 1914, only 90 years ago. Luther's doctrines date to 1517, 487 years ago.

The original doctrines of Christ were taught to the Catholic Church by the Apostles from her birth at Pentecost in 33 A.D., 2,000 years ago. Catholicism is authentic Christianity.

The Catholic Church is the guardian and interpreter of the Depositum Fide (Deposit of Faith) that was "once for all handed down by the Apostles" Jude 3. As for the rest, forgeddabout it.

Barrett's statistical survey of denominations was world-wide. There are a lot of countries out there. :globe:

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Mickey's_Girl]

Likos--

Wait, whoa, whoa. Let's back up for a minute, here:

I admitted that your description of Luther's "snow-covered dung-hill" was historically accurate. I was taking issue with your blanket statement that that was "the" Protestant worldview. I threw those AG quotes up there just to show that other major Protestant denominations believed differently from Luther's idea...that, in fact, some of them are much closer to Catholic doctrine on this particular issue (original sin/total depravity).

[quote]"What would make the doctrines of the AoG more "true" than Luther's teaching? Or Calvin's? Why do you believe the AoG is right and those who hold Luther's or Calvin's views wrong?"[/quote]

Again, the answer to your question is the point I was trying to make. If, as you believe, the Catholic teaching on this is true, then the closer one is to that teaching, the closer one is to the truth, no? Obviously, according to you, I don't have the Truth. But I'm still closer.

[quote]"Your beliefs are based on yet another interpretation of the same Bible. And the doctrines of the AOG were developed in 1914, only 90 years ago. Luther's doctrines date to 1517, 487 years ago."[/quote]

Likos, my friend, why do you think I'm interested in Catholicism in the first place? I have never been impressed by the fact that my denomination is 90 years old. In fact, I'm not terribly *attached* to the AG at all, although at this point in my life I feel it's where God has placed me (this could, of course, change). I'm "iffy" on some of the "core doctrines" of the AG (the Rapture, for instance).

This brings me back around to my point: lots of Catholics on this board hold inaccurate beliefs about "the Protestant world", just as many Protestants inaccurately understand Catholicism. I wanted to show another side to this.

I realize that this is the debate table. And I realize that many on this board take the "church militant" label quite literally, and that they are extremely certain about their faith. Other people on this phorum complain about how Protestants try to "cram scripture" down their throats in order to convert them. I understand their feeling, because often I try to bring up a point here, but instead of addressing my actual point, people "cram tradition" down my throat. Why do you think that will convince me?

If you've read my other posts (I know you have, Likos, and I've appreciated our dialogue), you know that I'm still in the "searching" phase. I'm not bringing up these topics to be "right" and dis all the Catholics (unlike some Protestants on this board). I'm bringing them up because I want straight answers from people with a clue. But when my original point (the fact that I see my own "worldview" as closer to the Catholic than the supposed "Protestant", even though I'm a lifelong Protestant) gets twisted around to something I never said ("Why do you believe the AoG is right and those who hold Luther's or Calvin's views wrong?"--I was never claiming that the AG has the corner on biblical truth), it's extremely frustrating.

In any case, I think I'll back off this thread for a little while. It's been interesting to hash this out. I might come back to it later.

MG

[Mickey's_Girl]

PS.

"The original doctrines of Christ were taught to the Catholic Church by the Apostles from her birth at Pentecost in 33 A.D., 2,000 years ago. Catholicism is authentic Christianity.

The Catholic Church is the guardian and interpreter of the Depositum Fide (Deposit of Faith) that was "once for all handed down by the Apostles" Jude 3. As for the rest, forgeddabout it."

I hear what you're saying, but I'm still in the reading-church-history stage, so you understand if I can't just take your word for it, right? :-)

"Barrett's statistical survey of denominations was world-wide. There are a lot of countries out there"

AHA! I get it now. That number makes more sense if it's world-wide. Thanks!

MG

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='May 2 2004, 02:57 PM']
Dude, that's just not true.[/quote]


Golly, Gee, MG, I took you at your word. Sorry.

[quote]"WE BELIEVE...Sanctification Initially Occurs at Salvation and is not only a declaration that a believer is holy, but also a progressive lifelong process of separating from evil as believers continually draw closer to God and become more Christlike."
[/quote]


I presented the classical, historical, original Protestant worldview, which still prevails with one twist or another for countless denominations. I also lamented that it would be impossible to present thousands of POVs to accommodate every denomination. I don't know how else I could have done it. Seems fair to me.
------------
I'm simply stating the historical and biblical case for Catholicism, If my words fall on receptive eyes and ears, well and good. I'm attempting to shine a light in the darkness here in my little corner of phatmass. I write for the benefit of lurkers as well as for a particular thread. Sorry if anything I said seemed personal or offended you. That was not my intention.

But let's not lose sight of the point of this thread. I think anyone can see how this worldview would affect one's way of acting, thinking, and perceiving.

Again,

Catholicism is Optimistic - man is good, a little lower than the angels, though inclined to sin. He can receive within his soul God's own Divine Life.

Protestantism (in general, special exemption to the AoG ) is Pessimistic - man is totally depraved - he cannot please God even when he prays and does good.

If anyone else wants to post their particular denomination's worldview, please do. I extended that invitation at the top of this thread. I'd be interested to read them.

Peace be with you, MG, and with all.

JMJ Likos

[Quietfire]

This is a great thread....few quick shout outs here.

Likos,
Loved your Catholic Wordview. Printed it out. Deep and I got every word. (there's a shock!)

MG- The Rapture, yeah sister! I think the reason you are having trouble with it is that so many believe that its some kind of Armageddon, the world blowing up and all that. I may be simplifying it and all may not believe that exact definition. But that is one of the reasons I sought out Catholicism.
*little history- I was trying to help someone understand that the Jehovahs Witnesses teachings were way off. It boiled down to the Rapture, and how ALL of them are SO looking foward to it to set everyone one of US straight. Catholics and Protestants. I talked to my Pastor- he couldnt help. Started doing some reading, looking for anything to refute thier 'claims'. EVERYTHING I found to help, every pamphlet... every book not only shot down all thier theories, but led ME here. why?

simple-everything I found and subsequently 90 % of my library on faith, all written by catholics. I admit it wasnt a vast library, but one day, I started going through all my book and some I was keeping and other were on thier way to the trash because something in them didnt seem 'right' to me. I kept finding the TRUTH in certain books, and 'opinions' in other. Follow me? Then it hit me...ALL the books that I was holding onto, reading, understanding and truly loving....Catholic.

Nearly fell off my chair.
And here I am.

[Quietfire]

p.s.

The book that started it all....."The People of the Way" by Anthony Gilles. Its a six volume series about the Catholic Church. this one is volume 2. Found it in a little christian bookstore and thought it had to do with the movement "The Way". Bought it before the event above but never got around to reading it until I started my research.

This series is out of print, so in the end I ended up paying a hefty sum to get the entire series. It was worth it.

Peace and Love

[Quietfire]

whew! the last, I have broadband so this shouldnt happen. So sorry. maybe a Mod can come in and delete all these misposts.....please.

Edited May 3, 2004 by Quietfire

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='May 3 2004, 12:45 PM'] whew! the last, I have broadband so this shouldnt happen. So sorry. maybe a Mod can come in and delete all these misposts.....please. [/quote]
As you wish.

Sometimes its not your connection speed thats at fault, its that PhatMass has alot of traffic so things work a little slow... I have broadband, too, and I've had the same thing happen a couple times.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='May 2 2004, 09:13 PM']
If you've read my other posts (I know you have, Likos, and I've appreciated our dialogue), you know that I'm still in the "searching" phase. [b] I'm not bringing up these topics to be "right" and dis all the Catholics (unlike some Protestants on this board). I'm bringing them up because I want straight answers from people with a clue. [/b] [/quote]
And we appreciate that more than you know!