Shroud Of Turin Copy At Summit

[DameAgnes]

http://www.monialesop.org/2011/10/400-year-old-copy-of-shroud-of-turin-on.html

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Thanks for posting this here, DameAgnes. I made a similar post in Open Mic a couple of days ago, and it got "lost in the shuffle" pretty quickly. (I posted it in Open Mic, because although the Shroud copy is on display in a monastery, even people who are not discerning a vocation might be interested, too.) However, another reminder is a good thing, and perhaps there are some people will see your post who only look at VS (just as there are people who don't pay attention to VS).

In the past, I haven't been much interested in the Shroud of Turin, and I expected to be even less interested by a copy--even if it's a very old copy. But, when I read that the copy had picked up a blood stain in the same place that the shroud has a blood stain, and that the blood stain on the copy is the same blood type as the shroud, it definitely caught my attention!

Yet another reason (of many) why I very much want to go to New Jersey--among other reasons is the fact that TWO orders I feel close to are physically very close to each other.

In any case, thanks for posting another mention of this, because I thought it deserved more attention than it got from my post.

Edited October 17, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Lisa]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1318873644' post='2322746']
In the past, I haven't been much interested in the Shroud of Turin, and I expected to be even less interested by a copy--even if it's a very old copy. But, when I read that the copy had picked up a blood stain in the same place that the shroud has a blood stain, and that the blood stain on the copy is the same blood type as the shroud, it definitely caught my attention!
[/quote]

I just read this too! How razzle dazzle!

[Little Flower]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1318873644' post='2322746']
Thanks for posting this here, DameAgnes. I made a similar post in Open Mic a couple of days ago, and it got "lost in the shuffle" pretty quickly. (I posted it in Open Mic, because although the Shroud copy is on display in a monastery, even people who are not discerning a vocation might be interested, too.) However, another reminder is a good thing, and perhaps there are some people will see your post who only look at VS (just as there are people who don't pay attention to VS).

In the past, I haven't been much interested in the Shroud of Turin, and I expected to be even less interested by a copy--even if it's a very old copy. But, when I read that the copy had picked up a blood stain in the same place that the shroud has a blood stain, and that the blood stain on the copy is the same blood type as the shroud, it definitely caught my attention!

Yet another reason (of many) why I very much want to go to New Jersey--among other reasons is the fact that TWO orders I feel close to are physically very close to each other.

In any case, thanks for posting another mention of this, because I thought it deserved more attention than it got from my post.
[/quote]
what orders? are they anglican ones? just curious

[MarisStella]

I had a crazy dream about the Summit Dominicans last night..

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Little Flower' timestamp='1318878197' post='2322791']
what orders? are they anglican ones? just curious
[/quote]

Actually no. Ironically, I know very little about Anglican Orders. One of the Orders (no surprise) is the Summit Dominicans. I like their blog, I like their Community (at least the little I know about it from the blog), I have a strong streak of Dominican in me, and I like their soap (among other reasons).

The other Community is located not too far from Summit, NJ in Mendham, NJ. They are the "Sisters of Christian Charity" (SCC's) (not to be confused with the Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity--sometimes all the very similar names of Orders can be confusing). I live across the street from the Western Province center of the SCC's (near Chicago), as well as their Sacred Heart Convent, a retirement/nursing home for their retired Sisters. These Sisters were the first religious Sisters I ever met, and I feel I couldn't have picked a better Order for my "first." These Sisters do wonderful work, and truly live the Order's Charism of "love, inspired by the Eucharist." (Those are MY words--their Web site explains it better.) I have yet to meet a Sister from this Order who is not the personification of "love." I have never felt that they love me any less because I'm an Anglican, or that they would love me more if I were Catholic. (Not that, like most Catholics I have met, they wouldn't be thrilled if I converted.) But they wait for ME to ask questions--and are extremely responsive when I do. As a group, they are the best witness for Catholicism I can imagine.

I would LOVE to visit their Eastern province, because it is larger than the Western province, and is where more of their active Sisters live, including their Sisters in formation. One marvelous thing about the SCC's in the Eastern province is that, in a portion of their Motherhouse, they run a college specifically for Sisters. Sister students who live too far away from their own Communities to commute (many Sister students are from Africa, for example) live right alongside the American Sisters.

The Western Province used to have many more Sisters than it has today, including a college for women (that later was opened to men), and a beautiful, enormous Motherhouse at the end of my block, that I drive by almost every day. The Motherhouse had to be sold for financial reasons, and it is now condos, but very tasteful ones. The Motherhouse was placed on the historical register, so from the outside, it looks almost just like it did in its active days. The condos are available only to those over 55, so the quiet nature of my neighborhood has been preserved. I'm very sad that the Sisters had to sell the Motherhouse, but the result could have been MUCH worse.

From pictures I have seen, the Motherhouse in Mendham, NJ looks very similar to the one near my house, but with a lot more land. (Although the Motherhouse on my block is surrounded by a (usually) very quiet city park with lots of benches for meditative thought). But, I'd love to get a feeling of what the Motherhouse might have been like when it was filled with Sisters.

I also learned something else that attracted me to the SCC's, that is, I heard them described as being very Ignatian in their spirituality. My screen name didn't evolve from great study, but came about as a hasty decision, because I wanted to post a question so had to quickly come up with a user name. My birthday is the feast day of St. Ignatius of Loyola, so I picked that name. After reading about Ignatian spirtuality, I suddenly realized that, "Duh! I'm an Ignatian." I can't tell you how exiting it was for me discover this--that my spiritual leanings were not unique, since on VS I tend to hear more about Dominicans, and Carmelites, and Franciscans, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with any of those spiritualities, except they aren't "me."

I think many women don't look seriously at the SCC's because they wear a modified habit. However, it IS a habit (not street clothes with a Catholic pin), and I've have never seen a Sister beyond the postulant stage NOT wearing a veil. And, the Order is very Orthodox, Thankfully, many women are able to look beyond the habit, and the SCC's are getting new vocations every year. Not huge postulant classes, but similar in size to many other U.S. orders, and a sign that the SCC's are growing in the U.S. (The SCC's are headquartered in Germany and have Sisters in several locations in Europe, as well as South America and the Philippines.)

It's ironic, now that I am well past the maximum age for most Communities and have health problems that would likely keep almost any Community from accepting me, as well as the "little" (LOL) issue that I am not Catholic (yet--that decision is God's), I have only now come to the place in my life where a relgious life sounds attractive in many ways. I'd love to have few possessions, with only a small cell that was "mine" (I have always loved small rooms), I could care less about what I wear or what my hair looks like, and a habit and a veil sound not only be meaningful but practical. Obedience would still be a daily struggle, and although I am pretty "unfussy" about food, I couldn't live with "dumpster diving." A cloistered life no longer sounds like a prison. And, I am very jealous (often in a very unChristian way) about women who are lucky enough to live in a community where the other women actually LIKE them, and are glad to see them.

Besides the issue of not being Catholic, there is the (perhaps not so "little") issue of an annulment--I have been divorced for decades, and it was my ex-husband (supposedly Catholic) who insisted on the divorce and gave me no option to try to save the marriage. I also have one more barrier. Sisters and Nuns are not normally allowed to keep their pets. However, I have two cats with chronic diseases, and I have made a vow to them that I will take care of them, "till death us do part." My male cat is 15 and has a tumor on his thyroid gland, and I don't know how much longer I will have him--it could be a few months, but it could be a couple of years (although that is unlikely). My little girl cat is much younger, but has several immune diseases, and I helped "rescue" her from a "owners" who were going to put her down because she was "too much trouble." My excellent vet diagnosed the problem quickly, and got it under control, although my female cat has other health issues. By the age of 2, when I adopted her, my "little girl" had lived in at least four houses (as far as we can figure--it could have been more). I know firsthand how it feels to be abandoned, and I promised her I would not do that to her. Yes, another home for my "little girl" could be a possibility, but my "little girl" (or my male cat, for that matter) never read the book that cats are supposed to be independent and aloof--they are both VERY dependent, and and almost always want to be in the same room with me. For example, one or the other cat often cries outside the door when I take a shower.

I apologize for this "too-long" post that repeats things I have said before. I did so because you appear to be newer to Phatmass and may not understand why I am here. (Not that I always understand. LOL)

Note: I don't really know what my "Non-Catholic but with a smiley face" tag really means--it just showed up one day. I interpret it that I am a "a friend of Catholicism"--a "person of good will" as the Pope would call me, even if I am not currently actively discerning Catholicism, although I remain very open to it.

My lack of knowledge about Anglican Orders is primarily due to the fact that, because of age and health issues, I would not be accepted by any Order I know of, Catholic or Anglican. I have learned about Catholic Orders from reading posts in VS, but not suprisingly, there are few, if any, posts here on Anglican Orders (nor would I expect any). Also, most Anglican Orders are located in the UK (which is not a problem in and of itself) since I am an ardent Anglophile and would love to live in the UK. However, that would present its own hurdles.

Edited October 17, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[brandelynmarie]

We love you, Iggy .

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='MarisStella' timestamp='1318883697' post='2322849']I had a crazy dream about the Summit Dominicans last night.. [/quote]

So what was the dream?

BTW--Did you know that the Summits now have a new soap called "Star of the Sea?" It is a gorgeous blue color, with a scent that I would describe as somewhat "fruity" (blueberry, maybe?), but not overpoweringly so.

[MarisStella]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1318890492' post='2322901']

So what was the dream?

BTW--Did you know that the Summits now have a new soap called "Star of the Sea?" It is a gorgeous blue color, with a scent that I would describe as somewhat "fruity" (blueberry, maybe?), but not overpoweringly so.
[/quote]

Well, I've been kind of stalking their website/blog lately, so I'm thinking that has something to do with it. But anyway, I was a postulant and I was giving someone a tour of the monastery. In my dream the monastery was really, really ornate, huge, and just kind of crazy. That's all I can remember, but it was extremely detailed..

I did see that! I want it.

[Emma]

You may all get angry with me for this one but - I was a science major in college and teach high school chemistry. Everything I've read about the shroud convinces me that it is a medival forgery and that carbon dating proves this. Yes, I know there are people who claim the carbon dating reflects soot from a fire in the middle ages but I don't think the experts agree. Accordingly, I cannot get excited about a copy of a forgery.

[brandelynmarie]

This is simply my take on this matter & I quote:

"While it is certainly possible that not all relics are authentic and that "fakes" may be circulating, it is best to treat ALL relics with reverance, lest we mistreat an authentic relic we mistook for being fradulent. It is important to remember that relics are meant to inspire us with devotion to God through a particular saint's example; therefore, it is understable that a fake relic can produce the same desired effect in the hearts of the faithful."

Here is the article I quoted from [url="http://saintrelics.org/#/authenticity/4527247991"]http://saintrelics.org/#/authenticity/4527247991[/url]

(I also just so happen to believe in the authenticity of the Shroud, but that's just me. )

[Strictlyinkblot]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1318889871' post='2322897']

Actually no. Ironically, I know very little about Anglican Orders. One of the Orders (no surprise) is the Summit Dominicans. I like their blog, I like their Community (at least the little I know about it from the blog), I have a strong streak of Dominican in me, and I like their soap (among other reasons).

The other Community is located not too far from Summit, NJ in Mendham, NJ. They are the "Sisters of Christian Charity" (SCC's) (not to be confused with the Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity--sometimes all the very similar names of Orders can be confusing). I live across the street from the Western Province center of the SCC's (near Chicago), as well as their Sacred Heart Convent, a retirement/nursing home for their retired Sisters. These Sisters were the first religious Sisters I ever met, and I feel I couldn't have picked a better Order for my "first." These Sisters do wonderful work, and truly live the Order's Charism of "love, inspired by the Eucharist." (Those are MY words--their Web site explains it better.) I have yet to meet a Sister from this Order who is not the personification of "love." I have never felt that they love me any less because I'm an Anglican, or that they would love me more if I were Catholic. (Not that, like most Catholics I have met, they wouldn't be thrilled if I converted.) But they wait for ME to ask questions--and are extremely responsive when I do. As a group, they are the best witness for Catholicism I can imagine.

I would LOVE to visit their Eastern province, because it is larger than the Western province, and is where more of their active Sisters live, including their Sisters in formation. One marvelous thing about the SCC's in the Eastern province is that, in a portion of their Motherhouse, they run a college specifically for Sisters. Sister students who live too far away from their own Communities to commute (many Sister students are from Africa, for example) live right alongside the American Sisters.

The Western Province used to have many more Sisters than it has today, including a college for women (that later was opened to men), and a beautiful, enormous Motherhouse at the end of my block, that I drive by almost every day. The Motherhouse had to be sold for financial reasons, and it is now condos, but very tasteful ones. The Motherhouse was placed on the historical register, so from the outside, it looks almost just like it did in its active days. The condos are available only to those over 55, so the quiet nature of my neighborhood has been preserved. I'm very sad that the Sisters had to sell the Motherhouse, but the result could have been MUCH worse.

From pictures I have seen, the Motherhouse in Mendham, NJ looks very similar to the one near my house, but with a lot more land. (Although the Motherhouse on my block is surrounded by a (usually) very quiet city park with lots of benches for meditative thought). But, I'd love to get a feeling of what the Motherhouse might have been like when it was filled with Sisters.

I also learned something else that attracted me to the SCC's, that is, I heard them described as being very Ignatian in their spirituality. My screen name didn't evolve from great study, but came about as a hasty decision, because I wanted to post a question so had to quickly come up with a user name. My birthday is the feast day of St. Ignatius of Loyola, so I picked that name. After reading about Ignatian spirtuality, I suddenly realized that, "Duh! I'm an Ignatian." I can't tell you how exiting it was for me discover this--that my spiritual leanings were not unique, since on VS I tend to hear more about Dominicans, and Carmelites, and Franciscans, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with any of those spiritualities, except they aren't "me."

I think many women don't look seriously at the SCC's because they wear a modified habit. However, it IS a habit (not street clothes with a Catholic pin), and I've have never seen a Sister beyond the postulant stage NOT wearing a veil. And, the Order is very Orthodox, Thankfully, many women are able to look beyond the habit, and the SCC's are getting new vocations every year. Not huge postulant classes, but similar in size to many other U.S. orders, and a sign that the SCC's are growing in the U.S. (The SCC's are headquartered in Germany and have Sisters in several locations in Europe, as well as South America and the Philippines.)

It's ironic, now that I am well past the maximum age for most Communities and have health problems that would likely keep almost any Community from accepting me, as well as the "little" (LOL) issue that I am not Catholic (yet--that decision is God's), I have only now come to the place in my life where a relgious life sounds attractive in many ways. I'd love to have few possessions, with only a small cell that was "mine" (I have always loved small rooms), I could care less about what I wear or what my hair looks like, and a habit and a veil sound not only be meaningful but practical. Obedience would still be a daily struggle, and although I am pretty "unfussy" about food, I couldn't live with "dumpster diving." A cloistered life no longer sounds like a prison. And, I am very jealous (often in a very unChristian way) about women who are lucky enough to live in a community where the other women actually LIKE them, and are glad to see them.

Besides the issue of not being Catholic, there is the (perhaps not so "little") issue of an annulment--I have been divorced for decades, and it was my ex-husband (supposedly Catholic) who insisted on the divorce and gave me no option to try to save the marriage. I also have one more barrier. Sisters and Nuns are not normally allowed to keep their pets. However, I have two cats with chronic diseases, and I have made a vow to them that I will take care of them, "till death us do part." My male cat is 15 and has a tumor on his thyroid gland, and I don't know how much longer I will have him--it could be a few months, but it could be a couple of years (although that is unlikely). My little girl cat is much younger, but has several immune diseases, and I helped "rescue" her from a "owners" who were going to put her down because she was "too much trouble." My excellent vet diagnosed the problem quickly, and got it under control, although my female cat has other health issues. By the age of 2, when I adopted her, my "little girl" had lived in at least four houses (as far as we can figure--it could have been more). I know firsthand how it feels to be abandoned, and I promised her I would not do that to her. Yes, another home for my "little girl" could be a possibility, but my "little girl" (or my male cat, for that matter) never read the book that cats are supposed to be independent and aloof--they are both VERY dependent, and and almost always want to be in the same room with me. For example, one or the other cat often cries outside the door when I take a shower.

I apologize for this "too-long" post that repeats things I have said before. I did so because you appear to be newer to Phatmass and may not understand why I am here. (Not that I always understand. LOL)

Note: I don't really know what my "Non-Catholic but with a smiley face" tag really means--it just showed up one day. I interpret it that I am a "a friend of Catholicism"--a "person of good will" as the Pope would call me, even if I am not currently actively discerning Catholicism, although I remain very open to it.

My lack of knowledge about Anglican Orders is primarily due to the fact that, because of age and health issues, I would not be accepted by any Order I know of, Catholic or Anglican. I have learned about Catholic Orders from reading posts in VS, but not suprisingly, there are few, if any, posts here on Anglican Orders (nor would I expect any). Also, most Anglican Orders are located in the UK (which is not a problem in and of itself) since I am an ardent Anglophile and would love to live in the UK. However, that would present its own hurdles.
[/quote]


I don't know if you're interested (as there's still the little matter of not being catholic etc) but there is one Poor Clares monastery that takes divorced women. I think you just need proof that the marriage has ended and if you're still married a letter of freedom from your husband. Don't quite know that that consists of but there you go. [url="http://poorclarestmd.org/"]www.poorclarestmd.org/[/url] They're in Wales and I have to say while I'm not drawn to Poor Clares per say I love their website. And apparently it is the 800th anniversary of St. Clare's vocation in 2012. So maybe we should all start praying to her for help.

[Strictlyinkblot]

Oh, you need to go to the FAQ page for the information on women who are divorced

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Strictlyinkblot' timestamp='1319028468' post='2323619']


I don't know if you're interested (as there's still the little matter of not being catholic etc) but there is one Poor Clares monastery that takes divorced women. I think you just need proof that the marriage has ended and if you're still married a letter of freedom from your husband. Don't quite know that that consists of but there you go. [url="http://poorclarestmd.org/"]www.poorclarestmd.org/[/url] They're in Wales and I have to say while I'm not drawn to Poor Clares per say I love their website. And apparently it is the 800th anniversary of St. Clare's vocation in 2012. So maybe we should all start praying to her for help.
[/quote]


Its a tangent from the thread, but I actually know of a good number of nuns who are also divorcees - Arundel Poor Clares do too, and the prioress at Q (plus another one sister at least there).





With regards the shroud, I have become less sceptical over time and now believe it may well be genuine - I think as I have become more emotionally convinced (as opposed to choosing to believe) about the Real Presence in the Eucharist, I see that Christ can do whatever He wills, and why shouldn't that include His shroud surviving? Also, with regards the bloodtype, [i]every[/i] Church approved Eucharistic miracle, where the Eucharist has either bled or in rare cases physically turned into human flesh and blood has, when scientifically tested, been found to be the same bloodtype - AB so not even the most common - and many of these predate knowledge of blood types. That, combined with a tiny drop of faith, is enough evidence for me.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Emma' timestamp='1318947682' post='2323187']
You may all get angry with me for this one but - I was a science major in college and teach high school chemistry. Everything I've read about the shroud convinces me that it is a medival forgery and that carbon dating proves this. Yes, I know there are people who claim the carbon dating reflects soot from a fire in the middle ages but I don't think the experts agree. Accordingly, I cannot get excited about a copy of a forgery.
[/quote]

If others get angry, I won't be one of them. As with so many things in my life, the Shroud of Turin is one of the things I still have questions about. (Although, I also admit I have not closely studied the various arguments pro and con.)

And, I could see why someone would not be excited about a copy--although the blood stain that appeared on the copy after it was placed on the original Shroud of Turin does give me food for thought.

But, when I saw the picture of the copy in the Summit Domnicans' chapel, I decided that, if nothing else, the image of of a man with wounds like Jesus' wounds, would, for me, be a meaningful reminder of Jesus' death and all he sacrificed and gave to us. Even if a copy of the shroud is nothing more than a mere picture (and I'm open that the shroud could be more, even if I'm not sure), it could be moving just as a beautiful painting is moving.