cmaD2006 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1319297478' post='2325163']At the same time, I'm sure there are plenty of people within the charismatic movement who don't get on like that. I just haven't met them yet. [/quote] You may have met them just that you haven't realized it . I don't carry a "I'm involved with the charismatic movement" banner on my forehead. I've seen the charismatic movement in action in more than one country, and in other countries it can be a bit more toned down than what I have seen here in the US. As I said it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but thank God for the diversity of movements and spiritualities encouraged by the Church. It wouldn't be as interesting if it was a One Size Fits All. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 That's just it, the people with problems with the charismatic renewal all have problems with the secondary outward signs of the renewal that they don't understand and preemptively judge. Unless you have been given a particular authority to decide if someone's experience is or is not the Holy Spirit you are no better off than the bystanders at the Pentecost declaring that the apostles were "drunk with a new wine". While some of the teens and newbies that are new in the movement sometimes focus on the outward signs or most of the charismatics that I speak to are focused on the inward fruits they experience through the renewal - conversion, forgiveness, faith, healing, peace, etc. Father Cantalemessa talks extensively about how the focus of the renewal has never been about the special charisms or the effects the Holy Spirit has on the emotions (we have an emotional response to our spouse, but we all know that isn't the root of our relationship with our beloved; why do we think we won't have an emotional response to God when we fall passionately in love with Him and deepen our experience of the interior mansions?) This emotional response is often known as the 'spiritual candy' that God gives us. It must eventually give way. Also, charismatics do not advertise or boast of the spiritual gifts. Most will not tell you that they have been given gifts like tongues, speaking with the saints in heaven, etc. What we need to realize is that the charismatic renewal is no more opposed to Traditionalism than science is opposed to reason. We often juxtapose them, and wrongly so. I was proud of my teens the last time we went to a charismatic conference (and I do not consider myself charismatic). One of our teens 'spoke in tongues'. Another teen went to confession for the first time and was healed of a deep wound she had lived with for a long time. They are recognized the true miracle of the young teen who went to confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The thing is, Pentecost had a reason. Something good came from it. Simply fainting or falling over has no purpose. I don't know if people 'feel' as though these things have a positive impact on their prayer life or not, but to me it seems like the fruits of that sort of thing are short-lived. We agree that most problems aren't with the charismatics who embody the spirit of the movement, but those loose canons (can't think of another way to describe them) who use the movement as a cover for their...interesting...notions about the Holy Spirit. I have had many so-called charismatics boast of their 'special relationship' with the Holy Spirit, one which I clearly mustn't have because I'm not one of them. It does happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i<3franciscans Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1319299395' post='2325182'] That's just it, the people with problems with the charismatic renewal all have problems with the secondary outward signs of the renewal that they don't understand and preemptively judge. Unless you have been given a particular authority to decide if someone's experience is or is not the Holy Spirit you are no better off than the bystanders at the Pentecost declaring that the apostles were "drunk with a new wine". While some of the teens and newbies that are new in the movement sometimes focus on the outward signs or most of the charismatics that I speak to are focused on the inward fruits they experience through the renewal - conversion, forgiveness, faith, healing, peace, etc. Father Cantalemessa talks extensively about how the focus of the renewal has never been about the special charisms or the effects the Holy Spirit has on the emotions (we have an emotional response to our spouse, but we all know that isn't the root of our relationship with our beloved; why do we think we won't have an emotional response to God when we fall passionately in love with Him and deepen our experience of the interior mansions?) This emotional response is often known as the 'spiritual candy' that God gives us. It must eventually give way. Also, charismatics do not advertise or boast of the spiritual gifts. Most will not tell you that they have been given gifts like tongues, speaking with the saints in heaven, etc. What we need to realize is that the charismatic renewal is no more opposed to Traditionalism than science is opposed to reason. We often juxtapose them, and wrongly so. I was proud of my teens the last time we went to a charismatic conference (and I do not consider myself charismatic). One of our teens 'spoke in tongues'. Another teen went to confession for the first time and was healed of a deep wound she had lived with for a long time. They are recognized the true miracle of the young teen who went to confession. [/quote] This was just wonderful! I had to give it props. Noel, like I said, everyone has their own opinions, but please don't turn this into a debate. If you would like a debate go to the Debate Table. I don't want anyone to be hurt so please be mindful of other peoples backgrounds whether you like with them or not. We all have to respect each other. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1319301253' post='2325193'] The thing is, Pentecost had a reason. Something good came from it. Simply fainting or falling over has no purpose. I don't know if people 'feel' as though these things have a positive impact on their prayer life or not, but to me it seems like the fruits of that sort of thing are short-lived. We agree that most problems aren't with the charismatics who embody the spirit of the movement, but those loose canons (can't think of another way to describe them) who use the movement as a cover for their...interesting...notions about the Holy Spirit. I have had many so-called charismatics boast of their 'special relationship' with the Holy Spirit, one which I clearly mustn't have because I'm not one of them. It does happen. [/quote] It's problematic to me. It's almost like the "Holy Ghost" becomes a drug to them; Pentacost did have a reason, that is, it was the beginning of the Great Commision; they were obeying Christ's command by going out and teaching all nations. The tongues were for the sake of those who needed to hear the Gospel. It was always for another, it was always selfless, and never for the benefit of the Holy Apostles. Remember, humility has always been an important, if not oft forgotten part of Christianity. Tell me how fainting, babbling like an idiot, screaming at the top of your lungs, running back and forth and otherwise acting foolish has any benefit to outsiders at all, other than making us look foolish. It's funny; I once went onto a video on youtube. It was a bunch of people at a "church" running around speaking in "tongues" and just being obnoxious. Lots and lots of athiests commenting and scorning them. Yet, when I went on to a video that included byzantine or gregorian chant, the comments were different; along the lines of, "I'm not a Christian, I am an atheist. However, I love the way this sounds, it's so sacred sounding and special." The concept of sacred has been lost on modern "christianity" it's turned into whatever feels good. The original concept of tongues has been so disfigured and destroyed, along with other gifts that is grieves me. It's truley become "whatever makes me feel good" "MY relationship with God, MY spiritual gifts, MY MY MY"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 [quote name='Selah' timestamp='1319463927' post='2326210'] It's problematic to me. It's almost like the "Holy Ghost" becomes a drug to them; Pentacost did have a reason, that is, it was the beginning of the Great Commision; they were obeying Christ's command by going out and teaching all nations. The tongues were for the sake of those who needed to hear the Gospel. It was always for another, it was always selfless, and never for the benefit of the Holy Apostles. Remember, humility has always been an important, if not oft forgotten part of Christianity. [b]Tell me how fainting, babbling like an idiot, screaming at the top of your lungs, running back and forth and otherwise acting foolish has any benefit to outsiders at all, other than making us look foolish.[/b] It's funny; I once went onto a video on youtube. It was a bunch of people at a "church" running around speaking in "tongues" and just being obnoxious. Lots and lots of athiests commenting and scorning them. Yet, when I went on to a video that included byzantine or gregorian chant, the comments were different; along the lines of, "I'm not a Christian, I am an atheist. However, I love the way this sounds, it's so sacred sounding and special." The concept of sacred has been lost on modern "christianity" it's turned into whatever feels good. The original concept of tongues has been so disfigured and destroyed, along with other gifts that is grieves me. It's truley become "whatever makes me feel good" "MY relationship with God, MY spiritual gifts, MY MY MY"... [/quote] As [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/user/13671-i%26lt%3B3franciscans/"][color="#272727"]i<3franciscans[/color][/url] said ... this isn't debate table. As I said in previous posts, the charismatic movement is not for everyone, and no not everyone involved acts in the same way. Selah I think we can all understand from your post that you don't agree with it ... that's ok. Just try to prevent turning this peaceful thread into a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I wasn't trying to debate, I was stating my opinion on it. I really don't have much time to get into a debate anyhow, so it would be bad on my part to start one. Blessings Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I also owe my vocation to the Charismatic Renewal. (well, mostly Fr.Long, but that's another story for another time.) I went to Steubie ATL. The adoration they had was mostly complete silence. You could hear a pin drop. (This year made me mad. It wasn't quiet except for about 6 minutes all together. ) It led me to discern my vocation more seriously. Like everyone else has said, iisn't for everyone. I now am more traditional. Latin mass, etc. And guess what led me to that? The Charismatic Renewal. The CR showed me all the different spiritualities and helped me realize that the Charismatic Renewal isn't for me. I'm not the only one who can say this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 i'm curious... how are charismatics responding to the new English Translation of the Roman Missal? From the group I hang out with, most of them just "do what the Spirit" tells them to do at Mass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Pax domine bretheren,others and church sympathisers... The charesmatic renewal iz approved by the magesterium that should be enough for me and you(unsure if it has been infalliably approved,but still vatican approval with the imprimatur whether written works or words proceeding from the vatican officially gotta be better than my individual opinions though we still need to dialogue and have opinions ), true it may not be for everyone it is the same as franciscan spirituality or benedictine iz not for everyone,but if it is approved by the church whether novus ordo,the various latin rites,charesmatic renewal,dominican etc etc ,it is all new wine just different flavours,some have a palate only for one some various over time some a bit of both ie. a main stay of novus ordo and wine tasting the others in ones life so to speak. God Bless you all. JC "seek and ye shall find,knock and the door will be opened." St francessca cabrini(the american saint.)"one whom dares nothing recieves nothing,a missionary should be fearless." St mary Mackillop of the cross. "be eager in your desires but patient in there accomplishment." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1319499577' post='2326511'] i'm curious... how are charismatics responding to the new English Translation of the Roman Missal? From the group I hang out with, most of them just "do what the Spirit" tells them to do at Mass... [/quote] All the people I know who are Charismatic are excited, They've been waiting for a better translation. They keep telling me they hate seeing the liturgical abuses at mass. And to that I toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1319499577' post='2326511'] i'm curious... how are charismatics responding to the new English Translation of the Roman Missal? From the group I hang out with, most of them just "do what the Spirit" tells them to do at Mass... [/quote] The renewal in my diocease have a charesmatic mass once a week which is approved by the arch bishop or i assume it wouldn't be out in the open and open with other christians, they where the first i recognised to embrace the new mass of the holy spirit, even there charesmatic mass runs to this form except there is charesmatic praise after the hymns and sung responses and the psalms are sung and the end there is communal prophetic word which is discerened by elders 1st before the person is given a yes or no to step up to the pulpit,sometimes(well rarely) even prophetic tounges which is also discerned and spoken from the pulpit,after the prophetic tounges is spoken the parishners are asked if anyone can discern it and than those whom have a sense they can they bring there sense to the elders to discern and the elders choose the discernment they sense fit the bill so to speak. This is all no infalliable but again that would be the pope on matters of faith and morals and the holy bible and sacred traditon. ight bless. God bless you all. JC. "seek and ye shall find,knock and the door will be opened." O.T. " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god." N.T.. "anyone whom says they haven't sinned is a lier." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 [quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1319500623' post='2326539'] The renewal in my diocease have a charesmatic mass once a week which is approved by the arch bishop or i assume it wouldn't be out in the open and open with other christians, they where the first i recognised to embrace the new mass of the holy spirit, even there charesmatic mass runs to this form except there is charesmatic praise after the hymns and sung responses and the psalms are sung and the end there is communal prophetic word which is discerened by elders 1st before the person is given a yes or no to step up to the pulpit,sometimes(well rarely) even prophetic tounges which is also discerned and spoken from the pulpit,after the prophetic tounges is spoken the parishners are asked if anyone can discern it and than those whom have a sense they can they bring there sense to the elders to discern and the elders choose the discernment they sense fit the bill so to speak. This is all no infalliable but again that would be the pope on matters of faith and morals and the holy bible and sacred traditon. ight bless. God bless you all. JC. "seek and ye shall find,knock and the door will be opened." O.T. " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god." N.T.. "anyone whom says they haven't sinned is a lier." [/quote] That sounds like liturgical abuse.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Pax domine the171 hey sister in christ when you get to approx 400 posts(not sure of the exact number) you get to become a pm alien not a plain old pm peep that's exciting to right lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yeah, I guess. I haven't really been paying attention to it lately. Mostly just posting to respond, answer, etc.But anyway, you need to bring up to your bishop what is going on at that mass. It sounds like liturgical abuse to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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