Divorce In The Bulletin

[Norseman82]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318700884' post='2321638']
The add below was in last weeks bulletin at a local church. I have to say I am disturbed by it. While divorce is a reality these days and there are certain cases where the church tolerates it, I am not at all comfortable with what seems almost to be promoting it or to the point of throwing in the towel. I am embarrassed that this was in a Catholic bulletin. Am I off?

Divorce Dos and Don't - Is divorce on the horizon for your or someone you care fore? Learn from a team of divorce professsionals about a) pros and cons of the five models of divorce, b) common mistakes to avoid, c) financial planning strategies available, d) the realities of co-parenting, and e) creating a plan of self care.
[/quote]

No, I don't think you're off. One of the most disappointing homilies I have heard was maybe only two years ago, when our associate pastor gave a homily when the gospel was about divorce and he made a very weak statement "sometimes marriages just don't work out" and he recounted how an aunt was divorced and she felt she was excommunicated for being divorced. First, he missed an opportunity for evangelizing what the Church really said about divorce, specifically that the thought of excommunication was due to the penalty (as stated in the Baltimore Catechism) for a Catholic being married by a protestant minister (without the proper dispensations) was excommunication (since a divorced Catholic cannot remarry in the Catholic Church without an annulment, so such people may resort to protestant churches). Second, it's very wishy-washy, almost a surrender to the culture of divorce.

Probably the most infuriating homily I heard was when a priest acting as administrator (later became pastor) recounted how his sister was dating and wanted to marry a divorced man and could not do so in the Catholic Church and how it caused pain in his family and - FROM THE PULPIT - called the Church's rules on divorce and remarriage "stupid".

I think with the amount of divorce in today's American culture we are bound to see more priests from families affected by divorce.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Norseman82

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Oremoose' timestamp='1318977938' post='2323389']What if the man tries to better himself? and if not how many saints are there who are known for staying with thier spouses through thick and thin?[/quote]

[quote name='Oremoose' timestamp='1318979433' post='2323397'] but graces upon those women who stay faithful to her vows.[/quote]
it's attitudes like this that paint the Church and Catholics in a very bad light indeed. total b.s. attitude.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1318830381' post='2322541']

I agree that there are people who honestly do try to fight like **** to salvage their marriage and get divorced anyway, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who don't try.
[/quote]

And that is part of the "wishy-washy" attitude I referenced in my prior post. I don't know about others here, but I have heard statements like "we are departing on amicable terms" or, "no hard feelings, we just agreed to end it" (if I could find the exact post on the other internet forum I saw it on, I would quote it verbatim). Now, I know what I am about to say may not set to well with some people, but it has to be said: If a couple has enough energy to divorce with no hard feelings, then what is so serious that they don't they have enough energy to work out the problem(s) they are facing?

Edited October 19, 2011 by Norseman82

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1318994658' post='2323493']And that is part of the "wishy-washy" attitude I referenced in my prior post. I don't know about others here, but I have heard statements like "we are departing on amicable terms" or, "no hard feelings, we just agreed to end it" (if I could find the exact post on the other internet forum I saw it on, I would quote it verbatim). Now, I know what I am about to say may not set to well with some people, but it has to be said: If a couple has enough energy to divorce with no hard feelings, then what is so serious that they don't they have enough energy to work out the problem(s) they are facing?[/quote]
they're lying?

not trying to be flippant, but the only people i've heard say that kind of croutons has been celebrities, not 'in real life' people. every divorced couple, there's at least one person in a lot of pain.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1318994785' post='2323495']
they're lying?

not trying to be flippant, but the only people i've heard say that kind of croutons has been celebrities, not 'in real life' people. every divorced couple, there's at least one person in a lot of pain.
[/quote]

Yeah, they could be covering something up to hide something personal. However, the quote I referred to was posted by someone I knew in real life.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Norseman82

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1318705789' post='2321670']
i am so glad you have the 'phishy' tag.
[/quote]

I agreed with this and gave it props.
I too have seen several instances of divorce support groups and material aimed at those considering a divorce in different parishes. In my opinion this seems to support the cause of divorce which seems at odds with the Church views on divorce, and even Jesus views. I think in certain cases such as continued abuse either physical or mental, substance abuse that a spouse is either unwilling or unable to stop, it may be the only option. I would think the Church would expect one to explore all possible avenues to save "what God has put together" before such an action would be considered. The idea of providing divorce support groups and literature such as described seems to lend a sense of acceptance by the Church to a person who may see this material. It would be akin to Church parish supplying pamphlets on the safest and easiest or most affordable place to get an abortion or a support group for those who have had or are considering one. This would not include those groups aimed at healing and counseling for those who have had an abortion and are looking for help either spiritually or mentally with what they now know as a grave mistake.

On a side note, I know a couple who are distant relatives of mine who divorced. The husband was a constant pot smoker and led an immoral lifestyle, the wife lived with him having four children. They started to have marital problems when their son started pot smoking and a local priest counseled the wife into divorcing the husband, which I thought was inappropriate, but what really turned out to be the most inappropriate thing this priest did was too obtain and annulment and matchmake her less than 6 months later with a man he knew who was divorced and got an annulment through him too. I never knew you could get an annulment so quick and get remarried that fast! They are married now for over 6 years, it just seems like it was not the priests job. I travel a lot and have found you can find priests who will vary so much on their views that they seem almost not to be catholic, for example a priest who was prompting his parishioners during what was supposed to be the homily at mass to vote for Obama for president as nobody should be denied healthcare. I seen him after mass and asked him if he realized the scope of the Obama healthcare plan, explaining his views on unlimited access to abortion funded by taxpayers monies and the fact that even religious affiliated hospitals would be required to provide abortions. His answer was, in this case caring for the living took precedent over the possibility of any future abortions?

Edited October 19, 2011 by Ed Normile

[organwerke]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1318710358' post='2321711']

"Annulments" have basically become Catholic "divorce" -- it allows them to remarry. Getting married a second time is what divorce is all about.

[/quote]

Strangely to say, annulments serve to preserve the sanctity of the sacrament, and to declare there was not a valid sacrament when really it wasn't.
There are persons who get married in a spirit of pure fraud, and to call this a valid sacrament means to distort the aim and the nature of the sacrament.
It is like to say that God in confession has really forgiven the sins of a person who is not repented at all.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1318994658' post='2323493']

And that is part of the "wishy-washy" attitude I referenced in my prior post. I don't know about others here, but I have heard statements like "we are departing on amicable terms" or, "no hard feelings, we just agreed to end it" (if I could find the exact post on the other internet forum I saw it on, I would quote it verbatim). Now, I know what I am about to say may not set to well with some people, but it has to be said: If a couple has enough energy to divorce with no hard feelings, then what is so serious that they don't they have enough energy to work out the problem(s) they are facing?
[/quote]

There are also some cases where the wife presents divorce papers to her husband and he didn't see it coming. When asked why she is leaving him she says something like, "If you don't know then that just goes to show how you don't know how to be a good husband." Men tend to be more dense than women and besides, maybe if he knew why she wanted the divorce that they could figure out how to work it out.

Some people also have an aversion to therapy, so one may want to go but the other doesn't want to go to a "quack," since some people think that psychology is just a bunch of whacky theory or that therapists are "for crazy people." There are also those who have just had bad experiences with therapists in the past, so they don't want to see a marriage therapist. I know from experience (not in marital counseling since I'm single,) that finding the right therapist is hard to do. Others, perhaps out of pride, go for a few sessions until it gets too personal for them-meaning that they don't want to face any mistakes that they may have made to contribute to some of the problems, then they try to avoid talking about certain things or quit altogether.

I'm not saying that all divorces fit under the scenarios I described, but there are ones that do.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1318994165' post='2323489']
it's attitudes like this that paint the Church and Catholics in a very bad light indeed. total b.s. attitude.
[/quote]

No kidding. I read about such thinking before by a Catholic therapist. He said that such an attitude of "Well, this abuse is just like the crucifixion of Jesus," when in reality, they are really just trying to convince themselves to stay in an unhealthy situation without seeking help.

It's hard not to believe such logic. An example would be St. Rita who was given in an arranged marriage by her parents and the man was physically abusive to her. He repented of mistreating her and converted, then died shortly afterwards. Then again, considering the time that she lived in, she probably couldn't have been able to leave the situation. Her culture wasn't the one that we live in.

[Oremoose]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1318994165' post='2323489']


it's attitudes like this that paint the Church and Catholics in a very bad light indeed. total b.s. attitude.
[/quote]
I agree and I don't want to come off as a jerk that just tries to shurg off the situation and tell the woman to smell of elderberries it up. But a sacred marriage is sacred and should be held as such. am I wrong in saying that? But I will say if woman entered the marriage thinking her spose was a different sort of man, by all means leave him.

P.S. I in a small reflection of my intentions realized I should now keep my mouth shut on this matter on the grounds that I am a young unmarried man and have no experiance in marriage. So I cannot comment on how one should be lived out.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Oremoose

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1318958375' post='2323240']


You're all over the map on this one Thess. I don't think you could come up with one priest or bishop that would advocate staying with an abusive spouse. If someone is divorced and is chaste, they are still in full communion with the Church. They can still receive communion. They can still be ministered to. Yes a marriage is assumed valid until the Church recognizes that the marriage is invalid. A better way to understand it would be

If a person divorces and does not request an anullment or does not receive an anullment, it can be considered to be a grave offense.
If a person divorces and receives an anullment, then they've done nothing wrong.
[/quote]

No I am not all over the map at all on this. You are selectively reading me. Ever heard of separation. Abused DOES NOT require divorce. The Church in canon law clearly prescibes separation in abusive relationships . Of course a woman should not stay with an abusive spouse but it does not require divorce for them to be separate. How is divorce going to do anything that separation would not?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1319012757' post='2323562']
"If you don't know then that just goes to show how you don't know how to be a good husband." Men tend to be more dense than women [/quote]

Well, for those that didn't get the memo, people are not clairvoyant, and a woman who would say that needs to have a no-nonsense priest (or nun who can wield a ruler like a kali stick) sit her down and lecture her to stop expecting others to be able to read her mind.

[Jaime]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1319045113' post='2323751']

No I am not all over the map at all on this. You are selectively reading me. Ever heard of separation. Abused DOES NOT require divorce. The Church in canon law clearly prescibes separation in abusive relationships . Of course a woman should not stay with an abusive spouse but it does not require divorce for them to be separate. How is divorce going to do anything that separation would not?
[/quote]

Well first of all, it allows for the process of annulment to start. Secondly, if they are separated and not divorced and she is hospitalized and cannot advocate for herself, he has the right to advocate for her whether she would want him to or not. Third, the abuser would have legal right and access to her money.

I could continue

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1319076861' post='2324031']

Well first of all, it allows for the process of annulment to start. Secondly, if they are separated and not divorced and she is hospitalized and cannot advocate for herself, he has the right to advocate for her whether she would want him to or not. Third, the abuser would have legal right and access to her money.

I could continue
[/quote]

I believe I said the Church "tolerates" it for the welfare of the children. I.e. inheritence. (see below) As I have said you selectively read my posts and then say I am all over the map. Yes, it can allow the anullment process to start. But this I believe I quite clearly said needs the guidance of a priest or competent Catholic counselor, not joe smoe saying "look what I found in the bulletin".

The starting point in divorce is grave offense. The marriage is assumed valid until proven otherwise, i.e. anulled. Anullment should not be a "maybe you can get an anullment if you get divorced" and most people don't know the first thing about why anullments are given until long after the divorce. If a priest has counseled someone that the marriage is not likely vaiid and should be anulled, i.e. as my priest did for me in my first marriage when a friend of mine confided in him that my wife told her she never wanted kids, then sure. Let the anullment process begin.

If somone is partaking in something that the Church considers a grave moral evil I would not want to participate in it with them unless I was sure that they had mitigating circumstances. That's all I am saying. Further if more people stuck out their marriages when separated it would uphold marriage. Everybody getting divorced for all kinds of reasons then cleaning up the mess afterward when they start dating somebody they have no buisness dating tears marriage down. Its a GRAVE OFFENSE. Futher the Church recommends separation in cases of abuse. Are you wiser than the Church? There may be cases of extreme abuse that do require divorce to protect the woman but not everyone who has anger management issues is going to pull the plug on his wife in the hospital.

Now I am not sure how much more painstakingly plain for you I can be.


[b]2383 [/b]The [i]separation [/i]of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.

Edited October 20, 2011 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Just for grins here is the canon dealing with abuse and separation.

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.
§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.

It does indluce mental or physical abuse.