thessalonian Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) [quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1318710358' post='2321711'] Maybe "divorce" is a legal term but the Catholic church used to be opposed to it because of what Jesus taught in Mark chapter ten -- about a Jewish divorce, remarriage, and adultery. "Annulments" have basically become Catholic "divorce" -- it allows them to remarry. Getting married a second time is what divorce is all about. Maybe the Catholic church should change the vows from: "Till death do us part" to "Till divorce do us part". Since in the vows when people say "For better, or for [b]worse..[/b]" -- they don't really honestly mean [b]for worse[/b].. [/quote] The Catholic Church has not changed on the matter. Certain priests and parishes may be off on the matter and need correction and that is the point of this thread. That you can't handle that is your problem. The Church doesn't need to change. People do. That includes many priests. I do agree that anullments are given out excessively. Again that is not a matter of a problem with the Churches official position on marriage. Edited October 15, 2011 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1318710028' post='2321704'] Catherine, you've done more than your fair share trying to explain to people who won't let your explanations penetrate their brains. not your fault. [/quote] Ahhh.. some of us are pretty darn stubborn. There's a good reason I'm called "phishy". I don't agree with everything that the modern Catholic church does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318710744' post='2321714'] The Catholic Church has not changed on the matter. Certain priests and parishes may be off on the matter and need correction and that is the point of this thread. That you can't handle that is your problem. The Church doesn't need to change. People do. That includes many priests. [/quote] Yes the Catholic Church has changed. Pope John Paul the 2nd added Canon's that gave [b]NEW[/b] reasons to grant annulments. The old Catholic Church had alienated a number of divorcee's with its old hard-line stance against divorce and remarriage. And they had dropped out... Arguably Pope John Paul II was trying to keep divorcee's from leaving the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) [quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1318711086' post='2321719'] Yes the Catholic Church has changed. Pope John Paul the 2nd added Canon's that gave [b]NEW[/b] reasons to grant annulments. The old Catholic Church had alienated a number of divorcee's with its old hard-line stance against divorce and remarriage. And they had dropped out... Arguably Pope John Paul II was trying to keep divorcee's from leaving the Catholic Church. [/quote] Again, please stay on topic. If you want to talk about the way you think the Catholic Church has changed please start a new thread. But remember to keep it within the guidelines. Edited October 15, 2011 by MissScripture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1318710418' post='2321712'] Seriously? We get that you disagree. But that isn't what this thread is about. Please try to stay on topic. [/quote] Yes it is. When people get divorced and remarry they are committing adultery. This "breakdown" of marriage is harmful to kids and society as a whole. It's annoying that the Catholic Church cavalierly disregards what Jesus Christ taught when they not only offers classes so that their members may divorce smoothly -- but also post it in the Sunday bulletin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1318711086' post='2321719'] Yes the Catholic Church has changed. Pope John Paul the 2nd added Canon's that gave [b]NEW[/b] reasons to grant annulments. The old Catholic Church had alienated a number of divorcee's with its old hard-line stance against divorce and remarriage. And they had dropped out... Arguably Pope John Paul II was trying to keep divorcee's from leaving the Catholic Church. [/quote] "New reasons?". What might those be? Canon 1095 only clarifies the conditions that previously existed for an anullment. Clarifications are allowed in Catholicism. I am sure you are against development of doctrine but it is dogma of the CC. Stop derailing my thread. It is not helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1318711188' post='2321721'] Again, please stay on topic. If you want to talk about the way you think the Catholic Church has changed please start a new thread. But remember to keep it within the guidelines. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 [quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1318711450' post='2321723'] Yes it is. When people get divorced and remarry they are committing adultery. This "breakdown" of marriage is harmful to kids and society as a whole. It's annoying that the Catholic Church cavalierly disregards what Jesus Christ taught when they not only offers classes so that their members may divorce smoothly -- but also post it in the Sunday bulletin. [/quote] This is not "THEE CC" posting in the bulletin. It is not in every bulletinin the diocese but in one! You are in fact derailing my thread. I wrote it. I should know. Start your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318711497' post='2321724'] "New reasons?". What might those be? Canon 1095 only clarifies the conditions that previously existed for an anullment. Clarifications are allowed in Catholicism. I am sure you are against development of doctrine but it is dogma of the CC. Stop derailing my thread. It is not helpful. [/quote] I apologize if I am derailing your thread. I think that I pretty much agree with you -- except I don't agree with what I see as changes in the Catholic churches Canon. I think you summed it up pretty well when you said: [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318700884' post='2321638'] While divorce is a reality these days and there are certain cases where the church tolerates it, I am not at all comfortable with what seems almost to be promoting it or to the point of throwing in the towel. [/quote] Edited October 15, 2011 by southern california guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1318700884' post='2321638'] The add below was in last weeks bulletin at a local church. I have to say I am disturbed by it. While divorce is a reality these days and there are certain cases where the church tolerates it, I am not at all comfortable with what seems almost to be promoting it or to the point of throwing in the towel. I am embarrassed that this was in a Catholic bulletin. Am I off? Divorce Dos and Don't - Is divorce on the horizon for your or someone you care fore? Learn from a team of divorce professsionals about a) pros and cons of the five models of divorce, b) common mistakes to avoid, c) financial planning strategies available, d) the realities of co-parenting, and e) creating a plan of self care. [/quote] Ugh. I don't think you're off at all. Even if they were going to do something as wierd as advertising divorce counselling/info/whatever in the bulletin, that's NOT the wording you want to use at all. Does the parish have alot of couples that are getting annulments? They definitely should have [i]at the very least [/i]put something about God and a Catholic perspective. Edited October 15, 2011 by Basilisa Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 If it were me, I would politely talk with Fr. about this. Where are the ads for Marriage Encounter? or Couples Bible Study? I wish the Church offered and the parishes promoted more programs for the vocation of marriage. I see annulment advocates in listed in the church bulletin; it would be promising to see a marriage advocate position created... iono... trying not to be too cynical as the Church does give us so much...I guess I see this as a growing need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Well I hope Catherine corrects this if its wrong but the Church isn't "against" divorce. If people need to divorce, they can. If they choose to do it as Catholics then they have to remain chaste (as we all do). If an annulment is recognized then they can marry again. If not they can't. But chaste divorced people are and should be welcomed in the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='jaime (hotness personified) (hotness personified) (hotness personified) (hotness personified)' timestamp='1318720294' post='2321763'] Well I hope Catherine corrects this if its wrong but the Church isn't "against" divorce. If people need to divorce, they can. If they choose to do it as Catholics then they have to remain chaste (as we all do). If an annulment is recognized then they can marry again. If not they can't. But chaste divorced people are and should be welcomed in the Church. [/quote] What? your gotta be kidding me. We don't need to wait for Catherine. [b]Catechism 2384 [/b][i]Divorce [/i]is a GRAVE OFFENSE against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery: [b]2385 [/b]Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society. Here it is clear that divorce itself is bad. Not just chaste divorce people. Edited October 16, 2011 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 In light of the CCC statements above it's a bit like saying "we have abortion counseling on how best to do it for those who are going to get an abortion". Certainly abortion is a more grave offense in the line of grave offenses but you see my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Correction - "Not just chaste divorce people." should be "Not just unchaste divorce people.". One who gets a divorce must confess it unless the reason fits what is specified in the Catechism and canon law. Edited October 16, 2011 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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