It Appears Herman Cain

[Adrestia]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1318969755' post='2323313']
The problem was spending was not capped as Reagan wanted
[/quote]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1319037197' post='2323667']
Reagan proposing a cut or not is not the issue.
[/quote]

What are you trying to say about the increase in national debt under Reagan? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand what point you are trying to make.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1319038614' post='2323677']
What are you trying to say about the increase in national debt under Reagan? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand what point you are trying to make.
[/quote]
The debt increased partly because the budgets Congress passed were higher than what Reagan wanted.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1319037596' post='2323669']
If I remember correctly, slavery was legal in Washington's day, and illegal immigrant labor is illegal today.[/quote]
That sums up the absurdity of Perry's foolish indignation. We can forgive Washington for slavery because it was legal, but we cannot forgive Mitt Romney for allowing human beings to work because it is illegal. I do not believe illegal immigrants forfeit their natural right to earn their bread, even if the government says otherwise.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1319041802' post='2323725']
That sums up the absurdity of Perry's foolish indignation. We can forgive Washington for slavery because it was legal, but we cannot forgive Mitt Romney for allowing human beings to work because it is illegal. I do not believe illegal immigrants forfeit their natural right to earn their bread, even if the government says otherwise.
[/quote]
No one mentioned anything about whether using slaves or illegal aliens should be forgiven or not or if either is more immoral than another. Perry's point is Romney portrays himself as strong against employers using illegal immigrants while having been caught twice with illegal aliens on his property.

Sounds like you are not a Romney supporter either. In fact, I don't think anyone on the stage supports employers getting a pass on hiring illegal aliens. The supposed softest candidate on illegal immigration is Perry, who believes children of illegal immigrants can receive in-state tuition as part of a naturalization process, which sounds reasonable to me. I know many of these children will show greater appreciation for the higher education opportunity than many American youths.

No candidate I know has said illegal immigrants do not have a right to earn their bread, just make sure it's in your own country. You may work in this country, but you have to sign the guest book when entering.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1319046087' post='2323761']
No one mentioned anything about whether using slaves or illegal aliens should be forgiven or not or if either is more immoral than another. Perry's point is Romney portrays himself as strong against employers using illegal immigrants while having been caught twice with illegal aliens on his property.

Sounds like you are not a Romney supporter either. In fact, I don't think anyone on the stage supports employers getting a pass on hiring illegal aliens. The supposed softest candidate on illegal immigration is Perry, who believes children of illegal immigrants can receive in-state tuition as part of a naturalization process, which sounds reasonable to me. I know many of these children will show greater appreciation for the higher education opportunity than many American youths.

No candidate I know has said illegal immigrants do not have a right to earn their bread, just make sure it's in your own country. You may work in this country, but you have to sign the guest book when entering.
[/quote]
No, I'm not a Romney supporter (or a Republican supporter). I actually believe in amnesty (although I am aware that is a dirty word in American politics).

As far as "signing the guestbook," that's all a matter of red tape. The fact is that if the first Europeans "signed the guest book" there wouldn't be a United States in the first place. History forgives everything if you wait long enough. Supporters of "American exceptionalism" would argue that the past is the past and what's done is done, it's our land now. Okay, that's true enough as facts go. But I say the same thing about illegal immigration. The United States is reaping what it sowed (imperialism in Latin America, manifest destiny, capitalist empire, etc.). The immigrants are here, and trying to undo what you did is like trying to giving the American continent back to the Indians. It's a fantasy. Conservatives are afraid that the same current of history that allowed the United States to come into being might now be its undoing. I do not believe that illegal immigrants are America's undoing, but that is what conservatives fear (just as Americans once feared that waves of Irish and Chinese would ruin America).

The nativism and xenophobia that feeds the Republican base is IMO a fear of the march of history. History moves on, and eventually the winners just tell the losers to deal with it and stop crying about how they didn't sign your guestbook.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Era Might

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1319050340' post='2323801']
No, I'm not a Romney supporter (or a Republican supporter). I actually believe in amnesty (although I am aware that is a dirty word in American politics).[/quote]
Nations without borders?

[quote]As far as "signing the guestbook," that's all a matter of red tape. The fact is that if the first Europeans "signed the guest book" there wouldn't be a United States in the first place.[/quote]
What government could the explorers talk to about signing the guest book? There was no nation and no government. It was land occupied by an indigenous people, who if theory is correct, had migrated from elsewhere.

[quote]History forgives everything if you wait long enough. Supporters of "American exceptionalism" would argue that the past is the past and what's done is done, it's our land now. Okay, that's true enough as facts go. But I say the same thing about illegal immigration. The United States is reaping what it sowed (imperialism in Latin America, manifest destiny, capitalist empire, etc.).[/quote]
Central and South America are the way they are because of America. Really? I blame Canada.

[quote]The immigrants are here, and trying to undo what you did is like trying to giving the American continent back to the Indians. It's a fantasy. Conservatives are afraid that the same current of history that allowed the United States to come into being might now be its undoing. I do not believe that illegal immigrants are America's undoing, but that is what conservatives fear (just as Americans once feared that waves of Irish and Chinese would ruin America).

The nativism and xenophobia that feeds the Republican base is IMO a fear of the march of history. History moves on, and eventually the winners just tell the losers to deal with it and stop crying about how they didn't sign your guestbook.
[/quote]
If it makes you feel better, I don't believe illegal immigration will be America's undoing. We have several issues to tackle, and illegal immigration and its costs is one of them.

Your stereotyping of republicans is clouding your judgment of what motivates people who are concerned about this issue. You sound like pro-choicers who stereotype pro-lifers who are pro-life just because they want to control women. Judge arguments before hearts.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1319056698' post='2323875']
Judge arguments before hearts.
[/quote]
I find that they are usually one and the same (e.g., the identification of liberals as "bleeding hearts").

Edited October 19, 2011 by Era Might

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1319058794' post='2323897']
I find that they are usually one and the same (e.g., the identification of liberals as "bleeding hearts").
[/quote]
And you know the motives of men's hearts?

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1318697523' post='2321618']
Seriously, why do you people not like Cain? His 9-9-9 plan was just endorsed by Reagan's economic adviser. [b]He's staunchly pro-life[/b], saying that life begins at conception. He comes off as very real, not fake or phony like all the other candidates.
[/quote]
[b] [url="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2011/10/cain-suckers-prolifers.html"]Cain Suckers Prolifers[/url][/b]

Posted on [url="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2011/10/cain-suckers-prolifers.html"]October 21, 2011[/url] by [url="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/author/markshea"]Mark Shea[/url]

As is the custom for GOP candidates, Cain makes soothing noises for prolifers who, like Charlie Brown and the football, life in the perpetual delusion that Republican candidates regard them as something other than useful suckers. But when pressed on what he will actually do? [url="http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1110/19/pmt.01.html"][color=#0066CC]Ahem[/color][/url]:
[quote]
MORGAN: By expressing the view that you expressed, you are effectively — you might be president. You can’t hide behind now the mask, if you don’t mind me saying, of being the pizza guy. You might be the president of United States of America. So your views on these things become exponentially massively more important. They become a directive to the nation.
CAIN: No they don’t. I can have an opinion on an issue without it being a directive on the nation. The government shouldn’t be trying to tell people everything to do, especially when it comes to social decisions that they need to make.[/quote]
Thanks, Mario Cuomo! So Cain’s “personally opposed” but he has no intention of, like, doing something.......

article here

[url="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2011/10/cain-suckers-prolifers.html"]http://www.patheos.c...-prolifers.html[/url]

[rachael]

he makes my skin crawl.

[Aloysius]

so... Ron Paul, anyone? he's pro-life, and by fighting against federal power he'd do a lot to pave the way for illegalization of abortion

[Jaime]

[url="http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/20/santorum-labels-cain-pro-choice-cain-rebuts/"]http://politicaltick...ce-cain-rebuts/[/url]

he goes into further details about his lack of committment

[quote]During an interview Wednesday with CNN's Piers Morgan, Cain stated his pro-life stance, even in cases of rape or incest.
"I believe that life begins at conception. And abortion under no circumstances," Cain said.
But when Morgan asked how he would feel if a member of his family were raped and if he would want that family member to raise the child, Cain said it is "not the government's role or anybody else's role to make that decision."
"So what I'm saying is it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make. Not me as president, not some politician, not a bureaucrat," Cain said. "It gets down to the family and whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn't have to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive issue."
"The government shouldn't be trying to tell people everything to do, especially when it comes to social decision that they need to make," Cain continued.[/quote]

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1319230883' post='2324823']
[url="http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/20/santorum-labels-cain-pro-choice-cain-rebuts/"]http://politicaltick...ce-cain-rebuts/[/url]

he goes into further details about his lack of committment
[/quote]


FYI, that is almost exactly what Obama was saying about abortion during his campaign. its probably word for word.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1319251049' post='2324959']


FYI, that is almost exactly what Obama was saying about abortion during his campaign. its probably word for word.
[/quote]


Not even close.

Obama spoke at Planned Parenthood conventions swearing to make abortions more available

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1319257151' post='2325027']


Not even close.

Obama spoke at Planned Parenthood conventions swearing to make abortions more available
[/quote]

im gonna have to find the original article, it was on PM (though a search for "obama" and "abortion" on PM is a needle in a haystack). i was not referring to his thoughts on abortion as a whole, but one of the quotes from him was that he would like the number of abortions minimized, but didnt think it was the governments place, that it should be "between the woman and her doctor".it was very similar to that quote from Cain.