Student Debt- Where Can We Draw The Line?

[dominicansoul]

oh, and if i want to go back to college, it's free for me..

[Winchester]

I made friends with Ben Bernanke.

[OnlySunshine]

I have a huge fear of incurring debt again because I struggled almost 2 years with paying off credit card debt after I became unemployed. I have been taking college courses over the time span of 9 years (sometimes full-time, but the last few years it has been part-time). I thought about getting a diploma to be a Medical Assistant or Medical Billing and Coding Specialist and looked into the for-profit schools like Everest University or Concorde Career Institute. I took a tour of Everest University and went to speak with the Enrollment Specialist who talked about how much training I would need, but she never mentioned the cost until she took me to visit the Financial Aid Department Specialist. The FA specialist told me that I could take out a loan for $15,000 and get government grants to cover the rest. I looked at her like . I told my mom that we were leaving right then. There was no way I was going to pay $15,000+ for 9 months of training and not be guaranteed a job at the end. I have since ruled out career colleges altogether and I am sticking to regular colleges and universities.

In the past few months, I have been researching universities that offer a Bachelor's in Social Work because I eventually want to get my Master's in the same field. However, I didn't know how I was going to pay for it and my mom mentioned the idea of student loans again. This, to me, is a very bad idea in my case since I am discerning religious life and my small amount of $1,500 in credit card debt put off my entrance to a community in 2009 (which I am no longer discerning with) so what would student loan debt do but make it worse?

I am really against the idea of student loans if you can afford school another way such as government financial aid and scholarships from private sources. I cannot wrap my head around paying a large sum of money back in monthly installments.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318289058' post='2319347']
Employers don't owe people jobs. They owe the people they hire just wages, but they do not owe a job to a particular person. If an employer absolutely could not stand working with Irish, it would hurt his business to hire them. That would hurt the other employees. Is that just?
[/quote]
I do not believe "Irish Need Not Apply" is just and I believe the government has a constitutional (and natural) obligation to prevent such injustice from taking place. Employers may not owe people jobs, but so long as employers want to take part in the act of employing, they are going to have to abide by the justice that society has established. Employers may not owe people jobs, but neither does society owe employers the right to employ. Employers have to meet society's qualifications, just as workers have to meet an employer's qualifications.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Era Might

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1318271439' post='2319174']
We disagree. The government has an obligation to establish justice, as the Constitution says, and preventing unjust discrimination against workers is a matter of justice.[/quote]
Except in this case what is and is not "justice" is very subjective and hard to determine. Unlike completely arbitrary features such as color of skin, whether or not an educational degree or certification should be required or considered when hiring is very much tied to whether the candidate has the ability/knowledge to effectively perform the job, and the employer has better competency to decide that than some judge. And there's enough issues regarding affirmative action and racial quotas already, without laws against "educational discrimination" going into effect.

If your ideas actually became law, we'd simply have alot more costly litigation, and an increase in the power of government courts, as every time someone with a degree got hired or promoted over someone without a degree, there'd be a threat of a lawsuit over "discrimination," and it would be up to the court to decide in each case whether or not the un-degreed person was in fact being unjustly discriminated against. The only people who'd truly benefit would be the lawyers.

Employers would feel pressured into hiring less qualified people with less education over more qualified people with more education for fear of facing a lawsuit. And would this actually be fair to people who spent the time, money, and effort to get a degree? It seems like they would wind up the ones being unjustly discriminated against.


[quote]It is possible to construct institutions that are rooted in freedom. The public library is an example of an institution rooted in freedom. Government is a necessary institution with obligations to society. I have never claimed to be an anarchist, and I believe government has a role to play in society, including establish justice.[/quote]
What exactly is an "institution rooted in freedom"? It seems one could make that claim of any institution they wanted, including churches, firms in a free market, or the Army. It's all largely a matter of rhetoric.

The truth is that increases in government power almost always occur at the expense of freedom - in this case the freedom of employers to choose what criteria they consider for hiring employees. It would simply expand the scope of the power of the state. But, then, why should anyone worry about that - as we know the State is an "institution of freedom," and will always act with our best interests in mind.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318294935' post='2319440']
What exactly is an "institution rooted in freedom"? It seems one could make that claim of any institution they wanted, including churches, firms in a free market, or the Army. It's all largely a matter of rhetoric.[/quote]
I was on my lunch break when I posted that, didn't have much time to think. I would have used instead the phrase "rooted in autonomous action" or something to that effect. But anyway, the point is the same. An institution is only beneficial to the extent that it increases our autonomous action. And that is the standard I would apply to any institution. When I speak of "institutions" usualy I am referring to institutions as they actually exist in our society, rather than how they could exist. Institutions are almost always threats to autonomous action

[quote]The truth is that increases in government power almost always occur at the expense of freedom - in this case the freedom of employers to choose what criteria they consider for hiring employees. It would simply expand the scope of the power of the state. But, then, why should anyone worry about that - as we know the State is an "institution of freedom," and will always act with our best interests in mind.
[/quote]
Hehe. I have no delusions about the state and its machinations. But that doesn't mean the state isn't a necessary part of social reform. I don't look to the state to bring about real change society, but for us to change society then using the political process is necessary, and the state is part of the political process. I don't believe that passing laws will lead to some utopia, but neither do I believe that getting rid of political and governmental process will do so either. And no, I don't believe employers have an absolute right to determine who they hire...as I told Winchester, I do not believe "Irish Need Not Apply" is just and I believe the political process is necessary to prevent such discrimination from taking place.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Era Might

[Winchester]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1318294932' post='2319439']
I do not believe "Irish Need Not Apply" is just and I believe the government has a constitutional (and natural) obligation to prevent such injustice from taking place. Employers may not owe people jobs, but so long as employers want to take part in the act of employing, they are going to have to abide by the justice that society has established. Employers may not owe people jobs, but neither does society owe employers the right to employ. Employers have to meet society's qualifications, just as workers have to meet an employer's qualifications.
[/quote]
Government and society are not synonyms.

And how are the bureaucrats going to determine unjust discrimination?

Edited October 11, 2011 by Winchester

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1318295710' post='2319450']
I was on my lunch break when I posted that, didn't have much time to think. I would have used instead the phrase "rooted in autonomous action" or something to that effect. But anyway, the point is the same. An institution is only beneficial to the extent that it increases our autonomous action. And that is the standard I would apply to any institution. When I speak of "institutions" usualy I am referring to institutions as they actually exist in our society, rather than how they could exist. Institutions are almost always threats to autonomous action[/quote]
However, following your proposals, the federal government would be restricting the autonomous actions of private employers.

Calling the State "an institution rooted in autonomous action" in that case would be entirely Orwellian.

[quote]Hehe. I have no delusions about the state and its machinations. But that doesn't mean the state isn't a necessary part of social reform. I don't look to the state to bring about real change society, but for us to change society then using the political process is necessary, and the state is part of the political process. I don't believe that passing laws will lead to some utopia, but neither do I believe that getting rid of political and governmental process will do so either. And no, I don't believe employers have an absolute right to determine who they hire...as I told Winchester, I do not believe "Irish Need Not Apply" is just and I believe the political process is necessary to prevent such discrimination from taking place.[/quote]
I definitely do not believe requiring or considering educational achievements in hiring to necessarily be unjust in every case, nor do I believe that it is in the scope or competency of the government to determine that. And, as I've explained, I believe your proposed law in reality would create far more problems and injustices than it would solve.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318296071' post='2319453']
And how are the bureaucrats going to determine unjust discrimination?
[/quote]
They are infallible gods.

But you already knew that, you fascist pig.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318296071' post='2319453']
Government and society are not synonyms.
[/quote]
I agree. That's why I don't believe social change starts with the government. The government is just the means of our political process.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318296478' post='2319458']
Calling the State "an institution rooted in autonomous action" in that case would be entirely Orwellian.
[/quote]
I didn't call the state "an institution rooted in autonomous action." I called public libraries that.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1318296937' post='2319461']
I agree. That's why I don't believe social change starts with the government. The government is just the means of our political process.
[/quote]
So you think we should use private aggression to enforce your beliefs.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318299468' post='2319471']
So you think we should use private aggression to enforce your beliefs.
[/quote]
No, public aggression. The government is a public institution.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1318290994' post='2319378']
I have a huge fear of incurring debt again because I struggled almost 2 years with paying off credit card debt after I became unemployed. I have been taking college courses over the time span of 9 years (sometimes full-time, but the last few years it has been part-time). I thought about getting a diploma to be a Medical Assistant or Medical Billing and Coding Specialist and looked into the for-profit schools like Everest University or Concorde Career Institute. I took a tour of Everest University and went to speak with the Enrollment Specialist who talked about how much training I would need, but she never mentioned the cost until she took me to visit the Financial Aid Department Specialist. The FA specialist told me that I could take out a loan for $15,000 and get government grants to cover the rest. I looked at her like . I told my mom that we were leaving right then. There was no way I was going to pay $15,000+ for 9 months of training and not be guaranteed a job at the end. I have since ruled out career colleges altogether and I am sticking to regular colleges and universities.

In the past few months, I have been researching universities that offer a Bachelor's in Social Work because I eventually want to get my Master's in the same field. However, I didn't know how I was going to pay for it and my mom mentioned the idea of student loans again. This, to me, is a very bad idea in my case since I am discerning religious life and my small amount of $1,500 in credit card debt put off my entrance to a community in 2009 (which I am no longer discerning with) so what would student loan debt do but make it worse?

I am really against the idea of student loans if you can afford school another way such as government financial aid and scholarships from private sources. I cannot wrap my head around paying a large sum of money back in monthly installments.
[/quote]

It should be noted that if you ever want to make more than minimum wage, never go to Everest College or any of those other crappy for profit colleges.
as a general rule, if the place advertises late at night on cable TV, you shouldnt go there.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1318300861' post='2319481']

It should be noted that if you ever want to make more than minimum wage, never go to Everest College or any of those other crappy for profit colleges.
as a general rule, if the place advertises late at night on cable TV, you shouldnt go there.
[/quote]

I wish those places would just close down. It's such a scam, anyways. I've seen people who get "degrees" or "diplomas" there and it's nothing more than a glorified degree mill. I saw one of the girls I knew who went to a career college a few years ago and she is now working in a retail store again (where she worked when I knew her).

ETA: Also, these for-profit schools have non-transferable credit hours, so if you decide to attend a regular school to further your education, you have to take the same classes over again. What a waste...

Edited October 11, 2011 by MaterMisericordiae