Down With Corporations?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318090718' post='2318003']
Then you need to move out into the wilderness cut down your own trees and build your own iron forge to build your own tools (not sure where you'd get the original tools for cutting wood, etc. - wouldn't want to purchase from capitalist slaveowners - supposed you'd have to make them chipped flint, cave-man style), grow all your own crops and raise your own livestock, then hand stitch all your own clothes, and prepare and cook all your food from your own crops.

Many preach independence from capitalist "slavery," but very, very few practice. Much easier I suppose to protest comfortably from air-conditioned offices on laptops bought from evil capitalist slave-drivers, and demand that the government intervene on behalf of internet would-be radicals everywhere.
[/quote]
I have no problem with business (or even necessarily large industry, within politically self-chosen limits). But we are separated from ourselves and our environment. You don't have to be a luddite to criticize technology. Personally, I'd rather patronize local business than a faceless corporation. I'd rather foster community than capitalism.

As far as "practicing" ideals, well, that goes without saying. Many preach independence from government taxation, but very, very few actually stop paying taxes (except for Henry David Thoreau). Many people preach a lot of things. I live in the society I live in and I am a slave to necessity. Freedom from slavery doesn't happen overnight...but by making practical steps toward freedom, we can create alternatives that will help bring the system down and lead to a better one. There are lots of ways to do this.

You speak of sewing your own clothes and making your own food like it's some sign of backwardness. I believe technology (and industry) should increase our ability to do such things, not replace it.

As far as the government "intervening," unless you want to argue that human beings do not need government (another Henry David Thoreau idea), then making changes is going to have political (and governmental) implications. Pointing out those implications is not, by itself, opposed to radical thought.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Era Might

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1318091666' post='2318010']
You speak of sewing your own clothes and making your own food like it's some sign of backwardness. I believe technology (and industry) should increase our ability to do such things, not replace it.
[/quote]
Actually I don't see such things as a sign of backwardness at all, and in fact, would have a large degree of respect for someone who successfully was able to live as self-sufficiently as I described.

My point was that to do all those things on one's own would take a huge amount of effort and time, and one would have to constantly engage in huge amounts of labor to live at a subsistence level. There would be no time for anything else, and none of the luxuries most of us take for granted today.
If people want to do this, more power to them - I certainly won't say them nay. It's just that almost none of those adamantly protesting "capitalism" and the free market on the internet make any real steps to living such a life of rugged self-sufficiency. It seems that they always instead demand that government or someone else do something [i]for[/i] them.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318092255' post='2318016']
Actually I don't see such things as a sign of backwardness at all, and in fact, would have a large degree of respect for someone who successfully was able to live as self-sufficiently as I described.

My point was that to do all those things on one's own would take a huge amount of effort and time, and one would have to constantly engage in huge amounts of labor to live at a subsistence level. There would be no time for anything else, and none of the luxuries most of us take for granted today.
[/quote]
And I think this is the crux of it. Seems to me that Era is more-or-less describing what the Amish do. If one wants to live in the manner of the Amish, so be it, and more power to them. I, however, do not wish to spend the remainder of my days toiling in a field. I want to become educated and travel and do any of a number of other things that would not be possible if I had to spend my every sunrise to sunset ensuring that my soybeans wouldn't fail.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318092255' post='2318016']My point was that to do all those things on one's own would take a huge amount of effort and time, and one would have to constantly engage in huge amounts of labor to live at a subsistence level. There would be no time for anything else, and none of the luxuries most of us take for granted today.[/quote]
No time for anything else? We don't have time for anything as it is in our wage slave system. It's true that subsistence living takes up time, but subsistence societies are not dependent on wage slavery. Growing your food and building your house is not a "job," it's part of your daily life and culture (and religion). Our society separates our wage slave lives from our personal lives...that is a modern distinction. As for our "luxuries," those are subjective. We consider a shopping mall or a supermarket a luxury. To ancient societies, making your own food and providing for yourself was a luxury...it was the wage slaves who were abnormal, having to depend on someone else for your existence.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318092255' post='2318016']If people want to do this, more power to them - I certainly won't say them nay. It's just that almost none of those adamantly protesting "capitalism" and the free market on the internet make any real steps to living such a life of rugged self-sufficiency. It seems that they always instead demand that government or someone else do something [i]for[/i] them.
[/quote]
But that's precisely what capitalism teaches...let someone else do things for us. Let media corporations teach and inform us, let shopping malls satisfy our needs, let Apple Computers and Facebook create our social life, let fast food restaurants feed us, etc.

[Era Might]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1318092803' post='2318019']
And I think this is the crux of it. Seems to me that Era is more-or-less describing what the Amish do. If one wants to live in the manner of the Amish, so be it, and more power to them. I, however, do not wish to spend the remainder of my days toiling in a field. I want to become educated and travel and do any of a number of other things that would not be possible if I had to spend my every sunrise to sunset ensuring that my soybeans wouldn't fail.
[/quote]
Amish life wouldn't survive on a large scale. I am not describing Amish society...I am not really describing any society, because it's impossible to say what a sane modern society would look like...it would differ from place to place and according to local wishes and circumstances. I am only saying that our society is insane by human standards.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Era Might

[Winchester]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1318089298' post='2317987']
I thought it was more of a draw Winnie.
[/quote]
No, they were clearly predominately pictures.

[Vincent Vega]

Don't be a pendant, winno.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1318092834' post='2318020']
No time for anything else? We don't have time for anything as it is in our wage slave system. It's true that subsistence living takes up time, but subsistence societies are not dependent on wage slavery. Growing your food and building your house is not a "job," it's part of your daily life and culture (and religion). Our society separates our wage slave lives from our personal lives...that is a modern distinction. As for our "luxuries," those are subjective. We consider a shopping mall or a supermarket a luxury. To ancient societies, making your own food and providing for yourself was a luxury...it was the wage slaves who were abnormal, having to depend on someone else for your existence.[/quote]
The truth is that if you yourself raised, prepared, and cooked all your own food, built all your own tools and your own house, and personally made all your clothes from raw materials (I'd contend that doing [i]all[/i] these things yourself would actually be impossible), you would in fact have little or no time for leisure activity, but all your waking time and efforts would be spent just trying to keep from starving to death.

And if you truly wanted to avoid supporting evil capitalist corporations, you'd do all that without the aid of any kind of motor vehicles, motorized farm equipment, power tools, firearms, computers, cell phones, etc., etc., etc.

Most complicated mechanical and electronic equipment depends on the economies of scale provided by mass production for their existance.

(Sustenance farming is in fact a reality in many places in the third world, and most sustenance farmers are gravely impoverished [and may face starvation in time of famine], and often welcome what we could consider very poor wage-slave jobs to rise above their sustenance level poverty.)

The truth is that nothing is really preventing keeping people opposed to "wage slave capitalism" from quitting their "wage slave" jobs and moving to a remote rural location and living off the land without benefit of modern mass-produced tools and conveniences.

The reason they don't is for the simple fact that such a life is damned hard.

The vast bulk of those who like to rail against "wage slavery" and the "capitalist system" are unwilling to spend their days in intense physical labor just to stay alive with none of the conveniences afforded by such products of capitalist wage slavery as indoor plumbing, air conditioning, and personal computers and cell phones with high-speed internet connections.

[quote]But that's precisely what capitalism teaches...let someone else do things for us. Let media corporations teach and inform us, let shopping malls satisfy our needs, let Apple Computers and Facebook create our social life, let fast food restaurants feed us, etc.[/quote]
Capitalism doesn't teach anything. It's simply an efficient method of producing and trading goods and services.

The truth is that any level of civilization above a caveman hunter-gatherer society involves some degree of specialization and division of labor (for instance farmers of different kinds of crops and livestock, craftsmen, builders, legislators, warriors, etc.) No one person can do everything on his own. Of course, in modern times, division of labor has become much more specialized - and thus more efficient - though one could argue this too has its drawbacks.

And if you or anyone else chooses to avoid any use of the computer or electronic media, fast food consumption, etc., that's fine and good. It just seems most people would rather use their laptop to rail against capitalist consumption than throw out their laptop.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318121352' post='2318178']The truth is that nothing is really preventing keeping people opposed to "wage slave capitalism" from quitting their "wage slave" jobs and moving to a remote rural location and living off the land without benefit of modern mass-produced tools and conveniences.[/quote]
As I said before, being opposed to wage slavery does not mean being opposed to business or even industry. The point is not to get rid of technology or get rid of industrialization, but to create a new system where these things increase our autonomous and creative action. You are correct that subsistence life can be very hard...that's where technology comes in. But the goal, again, is for technology to increase our use-fullness, not destroy it.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318121352' post='2318178']Capitalism doesn't teach anything. It's simply an efficient method of producing and trading goods and services.[/quote]
If you really believe that "capitalism doesn't teach anything" then you are going to be blind to a lot of things. Capitalism is part of how we have chosen to organize ourselves. It is a reflection of our society, our culture, our religion, our psychology...just like every other aspect of society is. Archaeologists looking back on our society 10,000 years from now will look at capitalism as one of the central ways of understanding who we were...because capitalism is part of our ideology...it is not just some abstract system separate from who we are.

[quote]The truth is that any level of civilization above a caveman hunter-gatherer society involves some degree of specialization and division of labor (for instance farmers of different kinds of crops and livestock, craftsmen, builders, legislators, warriors, etc.) No one person can do everything on his own. Of course, in modern times, division of labor has become much more specialized - and thus more efficient - though one could argue this too has its drawbacks.[/quote]
I never said people should do things in isolation...my political philosophy takes community for granted.

[quote]And if you or anyone else chooses to avoid any use of the computer or electronic media, fast food consumption, etc., that's fine and good. It just seems most people would rather use their laptop to rail against capitalist consumption than throw out their laptop.
[/quote]
You are creating a false alternative: that being critical of our technology or economy means abandoning it completely. Just because we have chosen to use these things a certain way doesn't mean it is the "right" way to do so, much less the only way. We can't imagine a different society. Nobody ever can until a society comes into being.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Era Might