Iz Pre Destination A Heresy?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

pax domine bretheren and others...
If pre destination isn't a heresy please explain why. My opinion is that if there is such a thing as predestination outside of the holy mother than why did jesus come to grant all souls the chance of salvation? I feel pre destination nullifies most of the new testament and possibly some of the old, if your predistened than you need do nothing and we are taught that we are saved by faith and works in hope and love. All your thoughts and teachings on this matter everyone, please.

God bless you all.
JC "anyone whom speaks in my name can eventually do no evil" "seek and ye shall find,knock and the door will be opened".

St Francessca Cabrini(the american saint) "one whom dares nothing recieves nothing,a missionary should be fearless"
St Mary Mackillop of the cross "be eager in your desires but patient in there accomplishment"

[Basilisa Marie]

No, it's not a heresy. Double predestination is, though. The way predestination works in Catholicism is that God already "knows" where each of us are going to end up...but He doesn't force us to end up there. It is through our choices in life that we choose either Eternal Life or Hell. So in a way, God already knows what each of us are going to do, and in that sense we are "pre-destined" for a certain place. But we are the ones who ultimately choose (through our actions) where we're going to end up. Double predestination says that God knows where we're going to end up and has chosen that place for us. God "wills" us to go to Heaven or Hell. Calvin liked this kind of predestination, but Catholics don't.

[MissyP89]

It might not be a heresy, but writing the word "is" with a z totally counts.

[cooterhein]

Are you familiar with Summa Theologica? I'd recommend taking a look at Prima Pars, question 23. Matta of fact, boom.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm[/url]

I heard this Thomas Aquinas guy used to be important to Catholics....but then the Jesuits got him. Something like that. Oh, not all Jesuits, though. Just the bad ones.

Article 1 answers your question, but 2-8 give you plenty more. Take a look at 3 while you're cruising by. Surprise!

[Selah]

Predestination, in the Calvinist sense, is indeed heretical and blasphemous. This is why private interpretation of scripture is dangerous, and that is exactly what John Calvin did.

[mortify]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1317853021' post='2315798']
pax domine bretheren and others..[/quote]

And with thy spirit, thank you for the traditional greeting,

[quote]If pre destination isn't a heresy please explain why.[/quote]

Predestination is first of all something beyond our human comprehension. We know that free will is true, but at the same time God knows the future and steers it in the direction that fulfills His purpose. And so there is great mystery in this topic.

What also needs to be done is distinguish the predestination of the elect from the predestination of the reprobates.The Church has unequivocally taught that God predestines the damned in light of their freely willed evil acts. In other words, because God is omniscient, He knows the evil deeds that are freely chosen by the reprobates, and that they ultimately will choose eternal separation. Calvin proposed the heretical view that God wills people to hell for no reason.

As for the other side, the predestination of the elect, the Church has left the issue open. Some believe God knows that certain souls will make it to heaven, and so He provides grace for them. Others say God predestines some to heaven independent of their good deeds, and so in this sense, God ordains certain people to heaven out of His own goodness and will.
[quote]
My opinion is that if there is such a thing as predestination outside of the holy mother than why did jesus come to grant all souls the chance of salvation? I feel pre destination nullifies most of the new testament and possibly some of the old, if your predistened than you need do nothing and we are taught that we are saved by faith and works in hope and love. All your thoughts and teachings on this matter everyone, please.

[/quote]

Many things in our Faith are easily accessible to the mind and can be completely understood. However, some revealed truths are simply too "big" for our finite minds to handle. As mentioned earlier, predestination is such a case. It's mysterious because we have to equally true doctrines of the faith: man has free will, and man is predestined. It seems contradictory, but it's really an issue of our own limitation.

As for the reality of these doctrines, since you accept that man has free will, I will limit to proofs that demonstrate predestination:

[b][color=#FF0000][i]"For those God foreknew he also [/i][/color][color=#0000FF][i]predestined[/i][/color][color=#FF0000][i] to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. [sup]30[/sup] And those he [/i][/color][color=#0000FF][i]predestined[/i][/color][color=#FF0000][i], he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[/i][/color] [/b]
[b]Romans 8:29, etc[/b]

[color=#FF0000][i][b]“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom [u]prepared for you since the creation of the world.[/u][/b][/i][/color]
[b]Matthew 25:34[/b]

[b][color=#FF0000]"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were [u]appointed for eternal life[/u] believed.[/color][/b]
[b]Acts 13:48[/b]


In Christ,
Mort

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I'm reading but unfortunately or fortunately not believing sorry to be difficult, what if the word predestined is an incorrect translation and the word may lead more towards those whom pre empt jesus' return and participate in the building up of the kingdom in various ways as different members of the body of christ and not bury there talent/gifts, they either bank within the church circles or invest there talents in the world (not talking general payed work though that i assume helps too) or possibly some or most or 50/50 we play both parts at various times of our lifes, what is the chatechisms teaching on this matter and has any pope spoken on this matter infallibly? Leads me to another question when jesus said that many are called but few are chosen is he not talking about the preisthood and the other various religious ie.nuns,missionary brothers and sisters and deacons. But than he never states according to my memory that those whom are not chosen for those particular parts of the body of christ are damned to hell in anyway. Gracious thanks for the input peeps but i am going to peep my chatecisim and search the vatican.va sight to see whether any pope has ever spoken on this matter infallibly.

God bless you all and your family and friends.
JC "seek and ye shall find knock and the door will be opened."

Toboby "please purchase a current chatecism and use the search engine provided at vatican.va if ever in doubt about what somone is claiming to be church official(or easier google search vatican official unsure vatican.va is the search engine of the whole church and it's position on various matters and church history etc etc.)

St Francessca Cabrini(the american saint) "one whom dares nothing recieves nothing,a missionary should be fearless."
St Mary Mackillop of the cross. "be eager in your desires but patient in there accomplishment."

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[b] The Mystery of Predestination in Christ[/b]

[b] General Audience — May 28, 1986[/b]

—    [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860528en.html#tocA1"]Chosen in the Eternal Son[/url]
The question about one's own destiny is a deep concern of the human heart. It is a great, difficult, but decisive question: "What will happen to me tomorrow?" There is the risk that mistaken replies may lead to forms of fatalism, desperation, or even a proud and false sense of security. "Fool! This night your soul is required of you," God warns (Lk 11:20). But the inexhaustible grace of divine Providence is manifested precisely here. Jesus provides an essential light. Speaking of divine Providence in the Sermon on the Mount, he ended with the following exhortation: "Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well" (Mt 6:33; cf. also Lk 12:31). In the previous catechesis we reflected on the profound relation between God's Providence and human freedom. Jesus addresses the words on the kingdom of God and on the necessity of seeking it above everything else precisely to man, first of all to man, created in the image of God.
This link between Providence and the mystery of the kingdom of God directs our thought to the truth of man's destiny—his predestination in Christ. The predestination of man and of the world in Christ, the eternal Son of the Father, confers on the whole doctrine of divine Providence a decisive soteriological and eschatological characteristic. The Divine Master himself indicated it in his conversation with Nicodemus: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (Jn 3:16).
These words of Jesus constitute the nucleus of the doctrine on predestination, which we find in the teaching of the apostles and especially in St. Paul's letters.
We read in the Letter to the Ephesians:[indent=1]"God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, having destined us to be his children through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace" (Eph 1:3-6).[/indent]
These luminous statements explain authentically and authoritatively what predestination consists in. (Christian terminology calls this "predestination" from the Latin term praedestinatio.) It is important to clarify this term from those erroneous or even imprecise and non-essential meanings which have entered into common use—predestination as a synonym for "blind fate" or the capricious "anger" of an envious divinity. In divine revelation the word "predestination" means God's eternal choice, a paternal, intelligent and positive choice, a choice prompted by love.
[b] 1.  [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860528en.html#tableA1"]Chosen in the Eternal Son[/url][/b]

Together with the decision that puts it into effect, namely, the plan of creation and redemption, this choice pertains to the intimate life of the most Holy Trinity. It is made from eternity by the Father together with the Son in the Holy Spirit. It is a choice which, according to St. Paul, precedes the creation of the world, ("before the foundation of the world," Eph 1:4), and of humanity in the world. Even before being created, man is "chosen" by God. This choice takes place in the eternal Son ("in him," Eph 1:4), that is, in the Word of the eternal Mind. Man is chosen in the Son to participate in the same sonship by divine adoption. The essence of the mystery of predestination consists in this. It manifests the Father's eternal love ("in love, having destined us to be his sons through Jesus Christ," Eph 1:4-5). Predestination contains man's eternal vocation to participate in the very nature of God. It is a vocation to holiness, through the grace of adoption as sons ("to be holy and blameless before him" Eph 1:4).
In this sense predestination precedes "the foundation of the world," namely, creation, since creation is realized in the perspective of man's predestination. By applying the temporal analogies of human language to the divine life, we can say that God "first" willed to communicate himself in his divinity to the human race, called to be his image and likeness in the created world. "First," he chose man, in the eternal and consubstantial Son, to participate in his sonship through grace. Only "afterward" ("in its turn") God willed creation; he willed the world to which humanity belongs. In this way the mystery of predestination enters "organically" in a certain sense into the whole plan of divine Providence. The revelation of this plan opens up before us the perspective of the kingdom of God and leads us to the heart of this kingdom, where we discover the ultimate finality of creation.
We read in the Letter to the Colossians: "With joy give thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Col 1:12-14). God's kingdom is the kingdom of the "beloved Son" in the eternal plan of the Triune God. This is so particularly because the "redemption" and "the remission of sins" is accomplished through the Son. The Apostle's words allude also to human "sin." Predestination, that is, adoption as sons of the eternal Son, operates therefore not only in relation to the creation of the world, but in relation to the redemption, carried out by the Son, Jesus Christ. Redemption becomes the expression of Providence, that is, of the solicitous governance which God the Father exercises particularly in regard to creatures endowed with freedom.
In the Letter to the Colossians we find that the truth of "predestination" in Christ is closely connected with the truth of "creation in Christ." St. Paul wrote: "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created..." (Col 1:15-16). Thus, the world created in Christ the eternal Son, bears in itself from the beginning, as the first gift of Providence, the call, or the pledge of predestination in Christ. The finality of the world is joined to this, as the fulfillment of the definite eschatological salvation, and first of all of humanity. "For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell" (Col 1:19). The fulfillment of the finality of the world, and especially of man, takes place precisely by means of this fullness which is in Christ. Christ is the fullness. That finality of the world is fulfilled in him in a certain sense. According to it, divine Providence cares for and governs the things of the world, and in particular, man in the world, his life and his history.
Thus we understand another fundamental aspect of divine Providence—its salvific finality. God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim 2:4). In this perspective it is only right to broaden a certain naturalistic concept of Providence, limited to the good government of physical nature or even of natural moral behavior. In actual fact, divine Providence is expressed in the attainment of the ends which correspond to the eternal plan of salvation. In this process, thanks to the "fullness" of Christ, in him and through him sin is overcome. Sin is essentially opposed to the salvific finality of the world, to the definitive fulfillment which the world and humanity find in God. Speaking of the fullness which has taken up its abode in Christ, the Apostle proclaimed: "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross" (Col 1:19-20).
Against the background of these reflections drawn from St. Paul's letters, Christ's exhortation becomes more intelligible, that is, in regard to the Providence of the heavenly Father which embraces everything (cf. Mt 6:33-34 and also Lk 12:22-31). He says: "Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well" (Mt 6:33; cf. Lk 12:31). With that "first" Jesus wishes to indicate what God himself wills "first"—that which is his first intention in the creation of the world, and at the same time the final end of the world itself. This is "the kingdom of God and his righteousness" (the righteousness of God). The whole world was created in view of this kingdom, so that it would become a reality in man and in history. By means of this "kingdom" and of this "righteousness," that eternal predestination which the world and man have in Christ may be fulfilled.
St. Peter's words correspond to this Pauline vision of predestination:[indent=1]"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet 1:3-5).[/indent]
Truly "blessed be God," who reveals to us how his Providence is his untiring, solicitous intervention for our salvation. It is indefatigably at work until we shall reach "the last time." Then, "the predestination in Christ" of the beginning will be definitively accomplished "through the resurrection in Jesus Christ," who is "the Alpha and the Omega" of our human history (Rv 1:8).

Source: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860528en.html

God Bless you all.
JC "seek and you shall find,knock and the door will be opened."

St Francessca Cabrini."one whom dares nothing recieves nothing,a missionary should be fearless"
St Mary Mackillop of the cross."be eager in your desires but patient in there accomplishment."

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1317909273' post='2316070']Predestination, in the Calvinist sense, is indeed heretical and blasphemous. This is why private interpretation of scripture is dangerous, and that is exactly what John Calvin did.[/quote]

Unsure there, i thought fervant worthy participation of the most precious body and blood surely would help us in the discernment of the holy word, i also thought lectio divina was reccomended by the church for the scriptures and has been used for 100s possibly 1000s of years in interpretation of scripture. If you have never heard of it than google lectio divina. And even without lectio divina surely the sacrements and ordinary prayer open us up to the will of god personaly and sometimes communaly through holy scripture and church tradition.

P.S. again i have no authority except the grace of god,that which is given me through participating of the holy sacrements,meditating on the mysteries of the rosary,reciting the rosary and asking for the holy mothers intentions for my family and world peace, and praying to god for others and myself. Anything i ever state must be thought about,prayed about and taken to the alter of sacrifice.

god bless you all

JC "anyone whom speaks in my name can eventually do no evil." "Be Baptised and believe." "if you eat my body and my blood you will be saved." "seek and ye shall find,knock and the door will be opened."