Jesus_lol Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1317686973' post='2314860'] And the fact that you're all on the same side in the abortion debate makes it all the worse. [/quote] people here dont like to let a little thing like holding the same position get in the way of impassioned ranting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1317687765' post='2314867'] people here dont like to let a little thing like holding the same position get in the way of impassioned ranting. [/quote] This. It is disappointing that Christians who basically believe the same thing (that abortion is evil) should be unable to dialogue and debate about methods of getting the message across to others simply because they want to score points through personal insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) the Obamacare sterilization-and-contraception mandate not only applies to individual Americans but also includes a “religious exemption” that is so narrowly drawn it does not include Catholic hospitals, charitable organizations or colleges and universities, and, thus, if finalized, would force these Catholic institutions to choose between acting against the teachings of their own church or dropping all health-care coverage for their employees. talk about your pro-choice, Edited October 4, 2011 by add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Sadly, Catholics aren't on the same page. Here is a statistic from the election in 2008: [quote]Nationally Obama captured 53% of the Catholic vote, a 13-point swing from 2004 and the largest advantage among the group for a Democrat since Bill Clinton. [/quote] Overall, the hispanic Catholic vote was overwhelmingly for Obama. And the black Catholic vote as well. Many Catholics ignored statements from their bishops to not vote for the pro-abortion candidate. So, now we have the obama administration trying to enforce their deadly brand of health care in our catholic universities... well, we voted for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 oh, and another observation from the past election: Catholics overwhelmingly said that the economy, not abortion, was the [i]dominant[/i] issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 ---taken from Time magazine dated November 5th, 2008... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I have the feeling that this thread will be closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 oooooh maybe Ill get banned too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 A friend of mine showed me an article in First things that made an interesting argument about it (The original topic of this thread), and other attacks on various religious rights. [url="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/10/legislating-the-constitution-down"]http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/10/legislating-the-constitution-down[/url] You know it must be grave when even Notre Dame is complaining. But in all seriousness, I think it makes a valid point. The article talks about how gay rights activists often say that they're just trying to let homosexual persons "live as who they are" in society. Okay, fine, I can understand that argument (even though I don't agree, [i]obviously[/i]). But what about Catholics and other religious people getting to live as we are, freely in society? Is this really going to turn into a tyranny of the majority over a religious minority? Unless something changes, I'm not sure how it won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 They are trying to do the same at Belmont Abbey College via the EEOC stating it is discriminatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1317668546' post='2314722'] The thing is that is from a fax cover sheet sent to a bunch of bishops. It is not a published part of Catholic teaching. It's basically the head of the CDF sending his advice to bishops. I always see it used to kind of justify downplaying the more social justicey issues. Note that the fax does not state that health insurance, care for the environment, the death penalty, and peace are non-priorities or that they are "socialist" or that they can be ignored. In fact I think if you asked the Pope he would strenuously object to that characterization. He wrote his own social encyclical, Caritas in Veritate, which is strangely ignored by everybody who talks about Centesimus Annus. They are high priorities, just not as high as eliminating abortion. [/quote] Trying to downplay and dismiss this memorandum from Cardinal Ratzinger to the bishops as a "fax cover sheet" (not sure where you got that from - the memo may have been faxed, but the quote is from the body of the memo) is a weak and pointless non-argument in my opinion. Card. Ratzinger was speaking as prefect of the CDF (a position essentially second only to the Pope himself in terms of authority regarding moral and doctrinal matters), and apparently thought this matter important enough to write the bishops about, so I don't think its words can be lightly tossed aside as something trivial or inconsequential. Rather than dismiss it as a "fax cover sheet," we should perhaps consider whether Cardinal Ratzinger actually meant what he wrote there. Everything certainly indicates that he did, and that when he wrote those words to the bishops, he wasn't just blowing smoke, joking, or fooling around. Cardinal Ratzinger was never one to toss out words idly, particularly on matters of such importance. Unless you can provide something from Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict himself indicating that he didn't really mean what he wrote there, I think it best to take his words at face value and not dismiss them. I never said issues other than abortion are non-priorities or can be ignored. I referenced [i]Centesimus Annus[/i] to point out that the Church does not in fact require that Catholics support every increase in federal spending to cover things such as college tuition or forced health insurance. To say so - much less put them on a moral level with abortion - is simply false. I would definitely argue that much of Obama's legislation is, in fact, quite contrary to the whole principle of subsidiarity As the quoted passage shows, John Paul II was not an unqualified supporter of inordinate increases in government bureaucracy and runaway government spending - even to perform tasks that are in themselves good. Nobody (all hysterical leftist agit-prop to the contrary) opposes helping the poor and needy, or wishes the poor and sick to be left to die. We conservatives simply disagree that the programs advocated by Obama and other left-wingers will best accomplish this in the long run, especially with our country rapidly being bankrupted. I'm sure you disagree, but such things can be legitimately argued and debated, while abortion can not - it's just wrong period. None of the things touted on this thread as reasons to support Obama - extending federal spending on educational grants and healthcare programs, "hate crime" laws regarding homosexuals, etc., comes anywhere close to abortion in moral gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1317686973' post='2314860'] And the fact that you're all on the same side in the abortion debate makes it all the worse. [/quote] Everyone here may agree that abortion is wrong, but there is disagreement over whether there are morally proportionate reasons to justify supporting a blatantly pro-abortion politician such as Obama. I don't think that is an entirely trivial disagreement. This is the debate table, after all, not the let's-agree-on-everything table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiiMichael Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1317755521' post='2315287'] Everyone here may agree that abortion is wrong, but there is disagreement over whether there are morally proportionate reasons to justify supporting a blatantly pro-abortion politician such as Obama. I don't think that is an entirely trivial disagreement. This is the debate table, after all, not the let's-agree-on-everything table. [/quote] Nope. That's not even the issue. You are all arguing over nothing. BrasiliaMarie was only attempting to break through the fear mongering propaganda that the article was using, and bring to light the fact that Obama, while pro-abortion, has done some good things that shouldnt' be ignored. She wasn't saying that they were more important than the abortion issue. She was just saying that he isn't [i]quite[/i] as terrible as this board seems to think he is. As Catholics, we have an intimate relationship with Truth. So why should we ignore simple truths? Such as Obama not being the anti-Christ, just because he supports abortion. No one is saying that abortion isn't a major issue, just that abortion isn't the only issue. Other goods shouldn't be ignored simply because our president doesn't support the dignity of life pre-birth. Abortion isn't even the only pro-life issue. Politicians don't run on single issues. So they shouldn't be judged on single issues either. And this post shouldn't be seen as a pro-Obama post. I did not vote for him, and I don't plan to vote for him either. Take a page from the man who's name you take, and read and understand what the other side is saying before jumping to conclusions. You can quote the Holy Father all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you take what you think people are saying and run with it, instead of really reading and coming to an agreement. Everyone here agrees on the issues. And agrees that abortion is a major issue. Some of us see that you can't, and shouldn't, throw the baby out with the bathwater. As pro-lifers, we should all be able to agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Abortion isn't just [b]a[/b] major issue. It is [b]the[/b] pre-eminent life issue. And yes, I will judge politicians on [b]this[/b] single issue. So Obama has done some good? Okay. Good. Has he furthered the abortion industry? Yes. And not just furthered, but protected the abortion industry. Negates any good he has done (in my eyes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317735872' post='2315136'] A friend of mine showed me an article in First things that made an interesting argument about it (The original topic of this thread), and other attacks on various religious rights. [url="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/10/legislating-the-constitution-down"]http://www.firstthin...nstitution-down[/url] You know it must be grave when even Notre Dame is complaining. But in all seriousness, I think it makes a valid point. The article talks about how gay rights activists often say that they're just trying to let homosexual persons "live as who they are" in society. Okay, fine, I can understand that argument (even though I don't agree, [i]obviously[/i]). But what about Catholics and other religious people getting to live as we are, freely in society? Is this really going to turn into a tyranny of the majority over a religious minority? Unless something changes, I'm not sure how it won't. [/quote] Are you saying that I may be among a catholic minority opposed to the Obamacare reproductive mandates, which makes me and the like minded, somehow invalid because the overwhelmingly majority of catholic perceived Obamacare to be a good thing? I object to having to pay for the Obamacare reproductive mandates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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