Will Obama Destroy Franciscan University Of Steubenville?

[Maggyie]

I think the issue with the picture of Jesus Christ is that one could easily post that while arguing in the opposite direction. After all we find Christ crucified in the poor, the immigrant, sick people living without health insurance and so on. The health insurance is a very real pro-life issue because there are a certain number of people who die on a weekly basis because they put off going to the doctor for a lump or some bleeding because they couldn't afford the copay. Our current system is just very unjust from many points of view including the Church's. The private charity sector has failed miserably in this regard. One of the few organizations stepping into the vacuum to help for women's cancers specifically is ironically Planned Parenthood with their free mammograms and pap smears. Which is not a good thing because it helps them "sugar up" their other "women's health services." Barf.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1317650255' post='2314565']
My sister got pregnant just out of high school. Thank God she was against abortion otherwise my niece would be dead right now. Instead she is an amazing talented young woman so I have zero tolerance for whishy washy nicey ness. When I talk about abortion I talk about my niece. When I see politicians who dont care, then they dont care about my niece. When it comes to defending my family yes I am very passionate.
[/quote]

So perhaps you are too close to this emotionally to see that you might actually do more harm than good in some situations. Sorry, but that's my opinion. People who have 'zero tolerance' can sometimes be labelled fanatics... right now this is for a good cause, but fanaticism also creates terrorists - people who bomb and kill abortionists in the name of good.... I am just wary of fanaticism that is basically emotionalism out of control.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317650296' post='2314566']


I have no opposition to the truth - you keep missing what I am saying - the content is correct - abortion is an evil and photos show this. All I am saying is that an aggressive self-righteous attitude can actually cause a person to be put on the defensive and to shut down any openness to the truth. The truth can be stated in a dispassionate and objective way that will be more effective in the long run. But of course this is a very emotional issue for all sides. On one side we have the evil of killing babies and on the other side we have feelings of guilt and/or self-interest, both of which are very strong. All I'm saying, as an ex horse trainer, is that there are ways to get a horse to drink - but not always shoving their whole head into the trough!
[/quote]


i don't find it self-righteous or forceful... in fact, pro-aborts are very successful at that, shoving abortion into the political system, forcing it into law, forcing us to pay for abortions with our tax monies, forcing catholic universities to offer these services... they are very successful in shoving our faces into their bloody trough...

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1317650647' post='2314571']


i don't find it self-righteous or forceful... in fact, pro-aborts are very successful at that, shoving abortion into the political system, forcing it into law, forcing us to pay for abortions with our tax monies, forcing catholic universities to offer these services... they are very successful in shoving our faces into their bloody trough...
[/quote]

Of course you don't - you are the one doing it - but I am saying that others might find it so. We don't always see how others perceive us.

and yes, pro-abortionists are very aggressive and obnoxious - does that mean we should be like them? You probably think so, I don't. I think we should be wise as serpents, gentle as doves.

[vee]

you have a daughter nunsense, if defending her made you a fanatic would you care?

Im fine with being a fanatic for my niece. Should we only speak of issues we have no real interest or involvement in? A remote detachment? This is how I preach on this. If people dont like it then put me on ignore.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1317650849' post='2314573']
you have a daughter nunsense, if defending her made you a fanatic would you care?

Im fine with being a fanatic for my niece. Should we only speak of issues we have no real interest or involvement in? A remote detachment? This is how I preach on this. If people dont like it then put me on ignore.
[/quote]

No, once again you are taking things personally and emotionally. I have no intention of ignoring anyone on here as I don't personally feel threatened by anyone. I am just stating my point of view as you are stating yours. Doesn't mine deserve as much attention and respect as yours does? I am not arguing content - I am vehemently opposed to abortion, and it has affected me more personally than it has you - but I am not going to discuss that on a Internet forum, even to make a point. I am arguing delivery method and the ways that it might be more effective. If you are getting good results with your tactics, then of course you are going to continue in your ways. I am much less inclined to attack the sinners - I see the evil and want it stopped, but I happen to believe that an aggressive approach isn't always the best one. It has already made you hostile to me here!

Anyway, this is the Debate Table, so we are debating.... no harm, no foul (at least as far as I am concerned).

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317651219' post='2314579']

No, once again you are taking things personally and emotionally. I have no intention of ignoring anyone on here as I don't personally feel threatened by anyone. I am just stating my point of view as you are stating yours. Doesn't mine deserve as much attention and respect as yours does? I am not arguing content - I am vehemently opposed to abortion, and it has affected me more personally than it has you - but I am not going to discuss that on a Internet forum, even to make a point. I am arguing delivery method and the ways that it might be more effective. If you are getting good results with your tactics, then of course you are going to continue in your ways. I am much less inclined to attack the sinners - I see the evil and want it stopped, but I happen to believe that an aggressive approach isn't always the best one. It has already made you hostile to me here!

Anyway, this is the Debate Table, so we are debating.... no harm, no foul (at least as far as I am concerned).
[/quote]

well, i agree no one should take things too personally, i mean, i get surprised when peeps get so hurt just because you dont' agree with their opinions, and heck, Vee is like THE nicest, sweetest person in the whole wide world, but they read her post and judge her incorrectly... the interwebz leaves a lot to be desired in terms of conveying true emotions and all...


yeah, peeps get hurt but then I realize its really just pride...

(and we'll all suffer from that until 10 mins after we're dead....)

[AccountDeleted]

And a p.s. - I am not an Obama fan - the title of this thread was what got me looking here in the first place!

[vee]

Psalm 55 His speech was smooth as butter,
yet war was in his heart;
his words were softer than oil,
yet they were drawn swords.

Not all that is soft and sweet is honest.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1317651617' post='2314581']

yeah, peeps get hurt but then I realize its really just pride...

(and we'll all suffer from that until 10 mins after we're dead....)
[/quote]

Not me!




I've written a book about how humble I am.... and it's the greatest book ever written!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1317651663' post='2314583']
Psalm 55 His speech was smooth as butter,
yet war was in his heart;
his words were softer than oil,
yet they were drawn swords.

Not all that is soft and sweet is honest.
[/quote]

Who said it was?

That is what I mean though. One can say something with sweetness - and still be passionate about it. You are reading this from a crooked angle... the poem actually supports what I am saying! You can have all that fire and passion in your heart and be as rabidly anti-anything that you want... but how you present often makes the difference between whether your words are effective or not.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1317647596' post='2314536']


i think she's speaking of the way you judged her posts as "absurd." I didn't find it absurd to be soo passionate about the murder of the unborn. And if posting pictures of aborted babies is absurd, well then so is posting pictures of Christ scourged and crucified. Let's not make people feel guilty, so lets pull the Corpus off crosses now!!!

you can preach to people one way, its not the only way... I know of some people who totally changed after seeing pictures like that...

and if being passionate about the unborn makes me absurd, then absurd I will be...
[/quote]

Actually I first mentioned the word "absurd" when I perceived someone saying that Obama was personally attacking Franciscan. [i]That [/i]specifically was absurd. I have perceived nothing but kindness and civility in Deus_te_Amat's responses, something that I can hardly say for those of certain other people in this thread. Others took my word "absurd" and applied it to things I never intended it to be applied to, further twisting the meaning of my posts into something of a straw man.

But which ways are more effective? Personally demonizing me and building up my responses into a straw man for you to burn? I'm on your side! Or at least I'm trying to be. There is a time and place for passionate rhetoric, and in those times and places it can be incredibly effective. In my case, it wasn't. All I ever want to do is to understand. I'm not afraid of changing my stances or opinions.

"If I speak in human and angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. "

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1317651617' post='2314581']

well, i agree no one should take things too personally, i mean, i get surprised when peeps get so hurt just because you dont' agree with their opinions, and heck, Vee is like THE nicest, sweetest person in the whole wide world, but they read her post and judge her incorrectly... the interwebz leaves a lot to be desired in terms of conveying true emotions and all...


yeah, peeps get hurt but then I realize its really just pride...

(and we'll all suffer from that until 10 mins after we're dead....)
[/quote]

Lol, I'm guilty of taking things personally for sure.

[Amppax]

You know, it really hasn't been too big of a deal here (sorry I'm getting back on topic). I wrote a letter a while back, but haven't really thought about it much. It's ridiculous, yes, and I know the administration is pretty concerned, but honestly, I don't feel like the President is specifically attacking my school. Religious institutions in general, Catholic institutions in particular? Yes. Franciscan? Nah.

Oh, and add some more fun, I shall introduce to you my buddy, Marc Barnes!



[quote]
[b] Contraception Uber Alles![/b]




[list]
[*]
[*]I received this message from a friend last night. I'd been following the issue, but had no idea that it was so immediate, and so I apologize for not tackling it sooner. For all practical purposes, Our Dear Government is telling Catholic health institutions that they must support contraceptive/sterilization use or cease to exist. Alternatively, they could serve and employ [i]solely[/i] Catholics, which, from every angle you look at it, is an entirely whack compromise. (Sorry, cancer-patient at St. Jude's. We're moving you to a city hospital; you're an atheist.) It is a serious step backwards for a society of religious tolerance and pluralism, and downright embarrassing for Americans to have to realize just how dumb our leaders are. I'll post on it in detail eventually, but for now:
[*]


Tonight I received a notification from one of my professors concerning a new mandate implementing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), which acts against the Catholic Church’s belief for the protection of all human life. These new guidelines, titled 76 Fed. Reg. 46621 (3 August 2011), mandate that “all individual and group health insurance plans, including self-insured plans, cover all FDA-approved contraception and sterilization procedures”

PLEASE READ THE ATTACHED DOCUMENTS to learn how these guidelines violate the practice of our Catholic faith.

These guidelines will supposedly take effect on August 1, 2012, unless there are enough letters (HAND-WRITTEN IS MOST EFFECTIVE) sent to Ms. Secretary Kathleen Sebelius at:

Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary
U.S. Department for Health and Human Services
200 Independence Avenue, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20201

I realize that this is short notice but the deadline for the “public comment period” is TOMORROW, SEPTEMBER 30th. Which means that if you want to express the Catholic Church’s opinion towards this new legislation, then you must WRITE AND MAIL YOUR LETTER TO SECRETARY SEBELIUS TOMORROW!!!

I have included a statement from Bishop David A. Zubik of the Diocese of Pittsburg; a sample letter; and Bishop Zubuik’s letter, which all came from the Diocese of Pittsburgh’s website ([url="http://www.diopitt.org/"]www.diopitt.org[/url]).

Statement:

[url="http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/HHSguidelines1.pdf"]http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/HHSguidelines1.pdf[/url]
Sample Letter:

[url="http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/HHSsampleletteto%20SecretarySebeliusr.pdf"]http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/HHSsampleletteto%20SecretarySebeliusr.pdf[/url]
Bishop Zubik’s Letter:

[url="http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/Bishop"]http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/Bishop's%20letter%20to%20Secretary%20Kathleen%20Sebelius.pdf[/url]All of this does nothing to counteract my growing belief that the federal government has lost any authority it ever had to oblige us to do anything at all.
[/list]
[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317589329' post='2314075']

Exactly. HEALTH INSURANCE. Just because Steubenville is one of many faithful Catholic institutions affected doesn't mean it's personally under attack, and to paint the picture as such is what I was calling inflammatory rhetoric.[/quote]
While I sincerely doubt that Obama or his cronies were specifically targeting FUS when they proposed these regulations, the fact remains that federal government mandates dictating that private institutions must buy "healthcare" paying for blatantly immoral practices (including the murder of unborn children) are themselves, in addition to their blatant immorality, blatantly unconstitutional acts of tyranny contrary to every principle of a free republic.

From Franciscan president Fr. Terrence Henry's statement:
[quote]“By making this insurance coverage mandatory, our government has violated the consciences of people of faith and infringed on our rights to practice our religious beliefs,” Father Henry’s statement said. “Mandatory contraception and sterilization coverage in college student insurance plans force Catholic colleges to undermine our missions as Catholic institutions.”

The so-called “religious exemption” Father Henry said, “will very likely not protect Franciscan University of Steubenville or hundreds of other Catholic colleges, schools, and organizations,” including Catholic hospitals, nursing homes, and social service agencies, which serve people regardless of religious affiliation.[/quote]

These unjust and immoral regulations wouldn't just affect the Franciscan University of Steubenville, but any other organization which chooses not to provide "healthcare" plans paying for contraception and child murder, and that, imho, makes them worse. It's socialistic tyranny that effects us all.



[quote]Oh really? Maybe not for you, but the Obama administration has done plenty of things other than play golf. Obama is the reason why I can stay on my parents' health insurance until I'm 26 because I'm a full-time grad student. If it weren't for that and the generosity of my parents, I would be living below the poverty line and would not have any health insurance. [/quote]
Oh indeed. I was growing lax in my faith in Dear Leader, and forgot that we owe all good things to his Merciful Benevolence.


[quote]Obama signed an act that increases the scope of hate crimes to include crimes against someone because of their gender, sexual orientation and disability.[/quote]
Wait . . . This is supposed to be a reason we should [i]support[/i] Obama?

The scope of federal legal power should not be increased to legislate against politically incorrect thought patterns, particularly regarding immoral behavior. All so-called "hate crime" legislation does in practice is grant homosexuals and such special additional legal protection. Committing a crime against a homosexual should carry no more and no less legal penalty than committing the same crime against a "straight" person. Justice should be blind, not weighted according to pc sexual politics.


[quote]He increased Pell Grants so more students can afford to go to college. He negotiated an agreement with Russia to reduce the number of nuclear weapons both of our countries have by 1/3. He expanded the Children's Health Insurance Program to cover millions of more uninsured children and pregnant women.


Yes, he isn't pro-life, but you honestly can't say that he hasn't done [i]anything [/i]for America. I'll probably get stoned for saying this, but I believe that abortion issues are not the only issues in politics. Yes, it [i]is[/i] incredibly important for us to be concerned with life issues. But at the same time what are we doing to help people once they're born? I don't agree with everything he's done or what he stands for, but someone would have to be blind to think that he hasn't done a single thing for the betterment of this country.[/quote]
Yes Obama's done a lot towards bankrupting our nation, but I suppose our children and grandchildren will pay for it all, or our ever-benevolent friends in China will bail us out (that is, if they weren't facing crises of their own).

Regarding abortion issues in politics, you might do well to read what our current Holy Father wrote as prefect of the CDF regarding political support of abortion and worthiness to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. ([url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfworthycom.htm"]"Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles," Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/url])
Political support of abortion is an excommunicable offense for a Catholic, while failure to support expansion of spending tax dollars on Pell Grants and such (at least to my limited knowledge) is not.

[quote][b] Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.[/b] For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment.[b] There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/b][/quote]

You have not provided any reasons for supporting Obama remotely approaching abortion in moral weight.