This May Be A Very, Very Dumb Question

[Blessed_Irmengard]

Okay, my (possibly) dumb question. Here goes.

I admire the Catholic Church's option for the poor and their firm support of social justice.
I adore reading the Dail Office, and I make time for it as often as I can.
I try to act on the 10 Commandments (and fail and try again and fail and so on and so forth).
I have favourite saints (Blessed Irmengard!).
I firmly believe that we NEED the Church for moral guidance and as a counterbalance to radical free market ideology etc..

But I do not believe in the resurrection of Christ. I just don't believe in it. I just don't. And can't.

[b]My question - does it make any sense and is it in any way legit to go to mass, light candles for favourite saints, stick to the 10 Commandments and so on and so forth if I don't believe in the resurrection of Christ? [/b]

There is a song in the official German songbook that can be found in all the churches that says something on the lines as: those who seek God and keep his commandments shall be saved. If it's in the songbook, it must be offical Church doctrine, right? Or am I just deluding myself?

Thanks for your input.

[MithLuin]

Certainly, many people follow the 10 Commandments who do not believe in Christ's resurrection. They are Jewish, I would think.

Again, there is no ID card checkpoint to enter a church and light candles. Noncatholics may do this, if they wish.

If you are asking if you can receive communion at mass, I would say no, for the sake of your own conscience. You have to be willing to say 'yes' to Jesus in the most holy sacrament when you receive, so if you do not believe Eucharist is truly the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus...don't.

You may attend mass, though.

I would not base my understanding of salvation on the lyrics of songs, but in short, belief in the resurrection of Jesus (and of us too, someday) is an essential part of the Christian faith. There is no way around that.

I encourage you to continue to seek God in prayer.

[BG45]

I'd attend Mass, say the Daily Office, light candles for Saints and so on, but not receive Communion. Doing that would be explicitly saying that you believe in the Resurrection and that His flesh is real flesh and His blood is real blood. I'd agree with MithLuin that believing He died for sins and rose from the grave are inherent parts of Christianity...that said, I know people who didn't believe in the Resurrection and who did all you're talking about who now believe in it, and then I know some who do not.

Seek Him, pray, and just mull it all over. The Resurrection may be a cornerstone teaching of Christianity, but it's also one of the most difficult, even for those who believe in it. There are days I sit there in Mass and go, "It all sounds a bit crazy really, but I believe it. I just struggle with my unbelief at times."

There's an apocryphal story of Pope John XXIII attending a funeral for one of his numerous family members who died of cancer and whispering (and I'm paraphrasing from memory), "And what if all of this is but a lie?" Blessed Teresa of Calcutta went through a Dark Night of the Soul that lasted most of her life, but she still struggled through it. None of us are immune from doubt, none of us are perfect creations.

So while I wouldn't receive without believing in the Resurrection, I wouldn't not do the other activities. You never know where they'll lead, and at least at the moment, they seem to give you a measure of peace at least.

Edited September 25, 2011 by BG45

[MissyP89]

It took me a very long time to come around to the idea of the Resurrection. There was a point in my life where, when we prayed the Creed at Mass, I wouldn't speak the parts involving Christ's Resurrection, or the resurrection of the dead.

Sometimes, it still messes me up pretty badly. I can say honestly that faith has been a huge struggle for me since the day I returned to the Catholic Church.

But the way I see it, if we wait for the day our faith is perfect, it will never come. Not in this life, anyway. Sometimes, we have to just throw up our hands and say, "This sounds insane, but I'm going to have hope anyway." That's the way I choose to live my life.

Mith is correct in saying if you're not able to say "yes, I believe in all the Church believes," you shouldn't receive Communion quite yet.

If you're [i]wanting[/i] to believe, it's probably a good idea to sit down with a priest and just talk things out. And pray as often as you can, if you feel comfortable doing so.

But don't ever feel you're not welcome at Mass, church activities, whatever. We all struggle in one way or another. You are no worse than any of us.

[Amppax]

Surprisingly, I've never struggled with the particulars of faith. Just with the existence of God. So I would say 1)pray about it 2) never say can't, God works in mysterious and miraculous ways. I would have said there were points of my life where I would have said that I could never believe in God, and yet I do.

And, as an edit this definitely isn't a dumb question, but a very serious one.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Amppax

[Socrates]

[quote name='Blessed_Irmengard' timestamp='1316979651' post='2309917']
Okay, my (possibly) dumb question. Here goes.

I admire the Catholic Church's option for the poor and their firm support of social justice.
I adore reading the Dail Office, and I make time for it as often as I can.
I try to act on the 10 Commandments (and fail and try again and fail and so on and so forth).
I have favourite saints (Blessed Irmengard!).
I firmly believe that we NEED the Church for moral guidance and as a counterbalance to radical free market ideology etc..

But I do not believe in the resurrection of Christ. I just don't believe in it. I just don't. And can't.

[b]My question - does it make any sense and is it in any way legit to go to mass, light candles for favourite saints, stick to the 10 Commandments and so on and so forth if I don't believe in the resurrection of Christ? [/b]

There is a song in the official German songbook that can be found in all the churches that says something on the lines as: those who seek God and keep his commandments shall be saved. If it's in the songbook, it must be offical Church doctrine, right? Or am I just deluding myself?

Thanks for your input.
[/quote]
The short answer to your question is no, if Christ did not rise from the dead, then there is no point going to mass, partaking in the sacraments, praying to the saints, etc.

As Saint Paul the Apostle says in 1 Corinthians 15:
[quote] N[color=#000000]ow if [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] be preached, that he [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm"][color=#000000]arose again from the dead[/color][/url][color=#000000], how do some among you say that there is no [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm"][color=#000000]resurrection of the dead[/color][/url][color=#000000]? [size=3]13[/size] But if there be no [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm"][color=#000000]resurrection of the dead[/color][/url][color=#000000], then [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] is not [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm"][color=#000000]risen again[/color][/url][color=#000000]. [size=3]14[/size] And if [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] be not [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm"][color=#000000]risen again[/color][/url][color=#000000], then is our preaching vain: and your [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm"][color=#000000]faith[/color][/url][color=#000000] is also vain.[size=3]15[/size] Yea, and we are found [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05781a.htm"][color=#000000]false[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15677a.htm"][color=#000000]witnesses[/color][/url][color=#000000] of [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"][color=#000000]God[/color][/url][color=#000000]: because we have given testimony against [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"][color=#000000]God[/color][/url][color=#000000], that he has [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm"][color=#000000]raised up Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000], whom he has not [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm"][color=#000000]raised up[/color][/url][color=#000000], if the dead [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm"][color=#000000]rise not again[/color][/url][color=#000000]. [size=3]16[/size] For if the dead [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm"][color=#000000]rise not again[/color][/url][color=#000000], neither is [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm"][color=#000000]risen again[/color][/url][color=#000000]. [size=3]17[/size] [b]And if [/b][/color][b][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] be not [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm"][color=#000000]risen again[/color][/url][color=#000000], your [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm"][color=#000000]faith[/color][/url][color=#000000] is vain: for you are yet in your [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm"][color=#000000]sins[/color][/url][color=#000000]. [size=3]18[/size] Then they also that are fallen asleep in [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] are perished.[size=3]19[/size] If in this life only we have [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07465b.htm"][color=#000000]hope[/color][/url][color=#000000] in [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000], we are of all [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"][color=#000000]men[/color][/url][/b][color=#000000][b] most miserable.[/b][/color][/quote]

The Resurrection of Christ is central to all Christian doctrine, and if you deny the Christ's resurrection, then much of the Christian Faith - including the Mass and other sacraments - becomes meaningless.

The Apostle's Creed (which contains the central dogmas of the Faith which must be believed in in order for one to actually be a Christian, and yes, takes priority over your German song book, which has no doctrinal authority) states:[quote]I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.


And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; [b]the third day he rose again from the dead[/b]; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins;[b] the resurrection of the body[/b]; and the life everlasting. A[size=2]MEN[/size].
[/quote]
In short, if you don't believe in Christ's Resurrection, you're not a Christian, much less a Catholic.

If you believe that Christ is in fact God, then you should have no problem believing that He can rise from the dead.

If you don't believe He was God, or that He rose from the dead, then the Mass is merely a meaningless superstitious ritual which cannot benefit you, as are other Catholic sacraments and prayers. Jesus is then just a guy who died a couple thousand years ago, and can't help you. Much less can the saints, who are just as dead, and died in vain in a deluded belief in Christ.

As for your question about "those who seek God and keep his commandments shall be saved," this begs the question: Saved by whom from what?
If Christ did not rise from the dead, then why should you believe that there is any life for you beyond the grave? If life ends with us rotting in the ground, and nothing beyond that, then there is nothing to be saved from, and as the Apostle says, our faith is in vain.

And if the Resurrection of Christ never happened, then He and/or His immediate followers were liars and frauds. I don't see what moral authority the Church would have for you anyway if you believe it to be an organization founded on a lie (or at best, a delusion).


Do you actually believe in God and the supernatural, or do you only associate yourself with the Church because you think it supports your political/economic ideals? (I suspect you are in error concerning the Church's actual social teaching, but that's veering off topic.) I think you need to be honest with us and yourself here before we move further.

There's nothing wrong, of course, with you going to church and praying sincerely for enlightenment (provided you refrain from receiving Communion if you do not in fact believe). We should all pray that you find and accept the Truth of Christ. God bless you in your journey.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Socrates

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1316997474' post='2310129']
If you believe that Christ is in fact God, then you should have no problem believing that He can rise from the dead.
[/quote]

This is an unfair statement. Anyone can struggle with any detail of the faith, even if it makes perfect sense.

[Luigi]

If God can get MissyP driving - and He did - then He can do anything, including raising Jesus from the dead.

But until that fact sinks in, I'd agree with Mith et al. - pray, attend mass, lgith candles (and ask them to pray that you receive the gift of faith), but don't receive communion.

[Papist]

[quote name='Blessed_Irmengard' timestamp='1316979651' post='2309917']
[b]My question - does it make any sense and is it in any way legit to go to mass, light candles for favourite saints, stick to the 10 Commandments and so on and so forth if I don't believe in the resurrection of Christ? [/b]
[/quote]
Does it make sense? No. It makes no sense to do any of these things if Christ did not rise from the dead. Is it legit to go to mass? I don't know what you mean by legit. But, I'd say attend mass with a open heart and open mind, but do not receive the Eucharist. The Resurrection is central to the Christian's faith. By receiving Communion, you say you believe.

I would also recommend that you ask yourself what is it preventing you from believing in the Resurrection. Reflect on that in front of the Blessed Sacrament. And ask Blessed Irmengard to pray for you.

[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/resurex.htm"]http://www.catholica...lam/resurex.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/risen.htm"]http://www.catholica...islam/risen.htm[/url]

God bless you.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Papist

[AccountDeleted]

I think that something inside of you believes in something... or you wouldn't 'waste your time' going to Mass in the first place. I know lots of people who are religious, don't believe anything, etc etc, and they don't make time to go to Mass. Something is going on inside you, even if it's at an unconscious or subconscious level.....

I'd echo the sentiments to keep going, but hold back from Communion until it means something to you on a conscious level. But I still think the pot is on the stove, simmering.

[Blessed_Irmengard]

Thank you all very much for your advice and kind words.
The've sort of echoed my own thoughts.
You know, I left the church a couple of years ago because I was troubled about the resurrection (among some other, less important things), which I realized is one of the stones on which the foundations of the church are built. Staying in the church under these circumstances felt very dishonest.
Then, over the last couple of years I realized that I really identify with many teachings of the church and I went back to going to mass etc. Of course, I never took the Eucharist and kept quiet during the creed. I am just a visitor, so it would have felt presumtuous to just join in. And dishonest again. :-)
Anways, an order in my hometown offers spiritual direction over a period of a couple of months, so I'll try to sign up there. Maybe I'll get closer to what it is that bothers me so much. I mean, I do believe we all have a spark of divine light that will not die, so I certainly believe that Jesus had this spark, too, and it didn't die when his body died. I just suspect "resurrection" means something a lot more grand than a tiny spark of divine light. It sounds like an enormous blast of divine light. :-) Oh well. Blessed Irmengard has been known to get infertile couples to conceive twins, so I shouldn't be an absolutely hopeless case.

Again, thank you all for the time you took to answer. It feels good to know that many others go through phases of doubt, too.

Okay, off to doing small things with great love again (=> wash windows, clean living room, make up beds).


Bless you.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1317013353' post='2310302']
If God can get MissyP driving - and He did - then He can do anything, including raising Jesus from the dead.

But until that fact sinks in, I'd agree with Mith et al. - pray, attend mass, lgith candles (and ask them to pray that you receive the gift of faith), but don't receive communion.
[/quote]

Oh come ON, man. I'm not that bad!

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Blessed_Irmengard' timestamp='1317054201' post='2310462']
Thank you all very much for your advice and kind words.
The've sort of echoed my own thoughts.
You know, I left the church a couple of years ago because I was troubled about the resurrection (among some other, less important things), which I realized is one of the stones on which the foundations of the church are built. Staying in the church under these circumstances felt very dishonest.
Then, over the last couple of years I realized that I really identify with many teachings of the church and I went back to going to mass etc. Of course, I never took the Eucharist and kept quiet during the creed. I am just a visitor, so it would have felt presumtuous to just join in. And dishonest again. :-)
Anways, an order in my hometown offers spiritual direction over a period of a couple of months, so I'll try to sign up there. Maybe I'll get closer to what it is that bothers me so much. I mean, I do believe we all have a spark of divine light that will not die, so I certainly believe that Jesus had this spark, too, and it didn't die when his body died. I just suspect "resurrection" means something a lot more grand than a tiny spark of divine light. It sounds like an enormous blast of divine light. :-) Oh well. Blessed Irmengard has been known to get infertile couples to conceive twins, so I shouldn't be an absolutely hopeless case.

Again, thank you all for the time you took to answer. It feels good to know that many others go through phases of doubt, too.

Okay, off to doing small things with great love again (=> wash windows, clean living room, make up beds).


Bless you.
[/quote]

Leaving the Church because you feel dishonest ... I can understand that. And that's even praiseworthy, that you realize to be a part of a group is to agree with them. A lot of people still in the Church believe a lot less than you do, I think.

It's OK to struggle with even the basic or seemingly obvious beliefs. Every single one of us here has had a season where they couldn't come to terms with something -- or even many seasons.

Salvation isn't something that happens in one moment when you say a prayer ... we spend our whole lives learning and growing. Holiness is a process. Be patient with yourself. (Boy, I should listen to my own advice now and then!)

[BG45]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1317073013' post='2310609']

Leaving the Church because you feel dishonest ... I can understand that. And that's even praiseworthy, that you realize to be a part of a group is to agree with them. A lot of people still in the Church believe a lot less than you do, I think.

It's OK to struggle with even the basic or seemingly obvious beliefs. Every single one of us here has had a season where they couldn't come to terms with something -- or even many seasons.

Salvation isn't something that happens in one moment when you say a prayer ... we spend our whole lives learning and growing. Holiness is a process. Be patient with yourself. (Boy, I should listen to my own advice now and then!)
[/quote]

This. And you've still got my prayers Blessed_Irmengard as you discern.

[Papist]

[quote name='Blessed_Irmengard' timestamp='1317054201' post='2310462']
Thank you all very much for your advice and kind words.
The've sort of echoed my own thoughts.
You know, I left the church a couple of years ago because I was troubled about the resurrection (among some other, less important things), which I realized is one of the stones on which the foundations of the church are built. Staying in the church under these circumstances felt very dishonest.
Then, over the last couple of years I realized that I really identify with many teachings of the church and I went back to going to mass etc. Of course, I never took the Eucharist and kept quiet during the creed. I am just a visitor, so it would have felt presumtuous to just join in. And dishonest again. :-)
Anways, an order in my hometown offers spiritual direction over a period of a couple of months, so I'll try to sign up there. Maybe I'll get closer to what it is that bothers me so much. I mean, I do believe we all have a spark of divine light that will not die, so I certainly believe that Jesus had this spark, too, and it didn't die when his body died. I just suspect "resurrection" means something a lot more grand than a tiny spark of divine light. It sounds like an enormous blast of divine light. :-) Oh well. Blessed Irmengard has been known to get infertile couples to conceive twins, so I shouldn't be an absolutely hopeless case.

Again, thank you all for the time you took to answer. It feels good to know that many others go through phases of doubt, too.

Okay, off to doing small things with great love again (=> wash windows, clean living room, make up beds).


Bless you.
[/quote]
Don't stop seeking and asking questions b/c Truth fears no question.

God bless you.