Quietfire Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 (edited) Here is a question that I need answering. Please dont consider this fruitless dialogue. I truly need to know. Is it possible for one to be Jewish, follow all the laws and such of the Torah, and still consider Jesus the Messiah? This seems to baffle my mind. Inasmuch that Jesus gave us a new convenant. I realize that there are some laws from the Old Testament that we are bound to still follow like the Ten Commandments. I have encountered such a person, and I am stumped. They denounce all Christianity, feel we should still be following the Torah while accepting Jesus. Edited April 29, 2004 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 I would say yes. Here are a few reasons: Ephesians teaches the Gentiles have gained something they did not have previously. Ephesians says that they are now equal in promises to the Jews. In other words, we are being included in the promises of the Jews, not the other way around. The new covenant that Jeremiah prophesized was to the Jews -- not the Gentiles. And as such, we must realize we are in a Jewish covenant. I'm not sure if that will aid your question now that I think about it. I am not sure what you mean by 'follow the Torah' either. All Christians -- protestant and Catholic are supposed to follow the torah. The torah commonly only means the first 5 books of the bible (although it can refer to the entire Old Testament). The first to try to abandon it -- Marcion -- was labeled a heretic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Quietfire, look at the NT, it says that we are no longer bound by the Law as our "school master" but we have a new Teacher... and remember, some of the epistles in the NT were written to early Christian Jews, having trouble with legalistic Jews telling them they still were under the law... while Paul would write them and correct that. look it up, its in the NT. so yeah, a Jew CAN become a Christian...but it would make them a Messianic Jew... God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Apr 29 2004, 02:54 PM'] Here is a question that I need answering. Please dont consider this fruitless dialogue. I truly need to know. Is it possible for one to be Jewish, follow all the laws and such of the Torah, and still consider Jesus the Messiah? This seems to baffle my mind. Inasmuch that Jesus gave us a new convenant. I realize that there are some laws from the Old Testament that we are bound to still follow like the Ten Commandments. I have encountered such a person, and I am stumped. They denounce all Christianity, feel we should still be following the Torah while accepting Jesus. [/quote] If they wanted to be correct.... To be Jewish and then accept Christ would put someone in the Catholic Church. [b]Romans 7:6 [/b]But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter. There are other verses, but I don't have time to put them all here. Check out www.ScriptureCatholic.com and go to [url="http://www.USCCB.org/"]http://www.USCCB.org/[/url] click on search, then click advanced, select just the bible, do searches in the "must contain box" for : [list] [*]Jesus Law [*]Law Disciples [*]Law Moses Peter [*]etc... [/list] God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 well, all three of us posted at the same time, but all three of us agree that a Jew accepting Jesus is a sweet deal. The only clarification needed is if you mean the mosaic law by 'torah'. And that is a little debunk anyway because they do not follow it anymore (actually impossible to without the temple). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Which was destroyed in 70AD And there ain't no more peace in the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted April 29, 2004 Author Share Posted April 29, 2004 (edited) Ironmonk, I will definitely check out that site. Ok, Let me clarify... A Jew accepts Jesus...as his personal savior and Lord rejects the teachings of the Church....denounes them all. Tells ME that that is not what JESUS meant. That there was never to be an 'organized' church. oh, it get worse. but you get the jist? Oh, carp why cant I just borrow all your brains for, say, FOREVER!!!!!!!!!! Edited April 29, 2004 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 so he's like me.... but a Jew? NICE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Apr 29 2004, 03:16 PM'] Ironmonk, I will definitely check out that site. Ok, Let me clarify... A Jew accepts Jesus...as his personal savior and Lord rejects the teachings of the Church....denounes them all. Tells ME that that is not what JESUS meant. That there was never to be an 'organized' church. oh, it get worse. but you get the jist? Oh, carp why cant I just borrow all your brains for, say, FOREVER!!!!!!!!!! [/quote] Study where authority is at in the New Testament... Also, in the Old Testament, authority was from the seat of Moses - the high priest was infallible because the Holy Spirit spoke through the priest. Likewise, with the NT, it's from the Chair of Peter and the Holy Spirit speaks throught the Church.... As Jesus promised. "no church" is unbiblical. Here are some verses to ponder.... John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, 17 the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10 Jesus promised that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit, in Truth. The Church cannot be wrong about faith and morals, because Jesus said so. 1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. To be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, then the Church must have the authority to teach the Word of God, to teach it infallibly. Infallibly because it is guided by God. St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- St. Matt 28:18 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Which Church has been making disciples of all nations since the Apostles for 2000 years? Which Church could possibly have Jesus Himself guiding the Church? ....answer to both.... The Catholic Church -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" This is another verse that shows there will be One Church to lead, One Church to preach the truth.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Timothy 3:14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, 15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 3 4 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, This shows that someone taught it....The scripture spoken of here is the Septuagint... The New Testament was not around until 400 AD. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Thess 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. 8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Tim 2:2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. These faithful people...who could they be??? Which Church has been around since the Time of Christ & His Apostles? .... The Catholic Church, fulfilling the commands of Jesus. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Romans 10:17 Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 3:5 which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 2:20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. 10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 11:2 1 I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. These traditions spoken of are what the Catholic Church hands on.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 15:3 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 15:11 Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acts 2:42 8 They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. They devoted themselves to the "teaching" of the Apostles, not scripture. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acts 8:27 So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot." 30 9 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. The Catholic Church is a gift from Christ sent to instruct us. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18) and the New Testament itself declares the Church to be "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader2 Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 (edited) lumberjack, A non-Catholic is a non-Catholic, whether jewish heresy or protestant heresy, it doesn't change the final outcome on Judgment Day. Per Mariam. Edited April 29, 2004 by Traditional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted April 29, 2004 Author Share Posted April 29, 2004 Ironmonk, dude, hope you realize that I'm gonna steal that. every word of it too. Now go back to work, you said you were busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader2 Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Oh, and to answer the question: No, you cannot accept Our Lord and deny His Church. Anyone who denies His Church denies Him; therefore, all who are not Catholic do not accept Our Lord, they merely THINK they do. Per Mariam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 [quote name='Traditional' date='Apr 29 2004, 01:35 PM'] lumberjack, A non-Catholic is a non-Catholic. [/quote] I couldn't have said it any better myself. ...and in my case and the case of all Christians out there, I praise God and thank the Lord Jesus for that. in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted April 29, 2004 Author Share Posted April 29, 2004 (edited) [quote]so he's like me.... but a Jew? NICE! [/quote] actually Lumberjack, even these people would give you a run for the money. and they included your teachings to be pagan as well, after all, you are a christian. they are definitely not like you. PEACE! Edited April 29, 2004 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thicke Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Does this person's group (you keep saying "they") have a name? Do they read the Bible, both Old and New Testaments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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