Autism And Atheism

[MIKolbe]

From Mark Shea's blog:


[quote][url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2039690/Atheism-autism-Controversial-new-study-points-link-two.html"]People with 'mild' forms of autism are more likely to be atheists[/url]


[url="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ACAW_enUS400US347&q=atheism+don%27t+be+a+Johnsonville%20brat"]So do other atheists [/url]who recognize that much of the atheist subculture seems to have serious trouble with normal affective and social cues. Such atheist get a lot of flack from the rather large segment of the atheist community on line which can see absolutely no problems at all with itself and wonders why the world does not recognize their obvious and flawless superiority to the untermenschen.

Not surprisingly, Rajib Khan, writing on Discover Magazine's 'Gene Expression' blog said of the study resultes, "I doubt this is going to surprise too many people." Nope. Not at all. He's right that you can't generalize to the whole population, of course. But the fact remains that, particularly on line, the bulk of the voices (and many of the leaders such as Dawkins, Myers, and Coyne) do come across like people who seem singularly incapable of normal social and emotional interactions. They themselves attribute it to their massively superior intellects. I attribute it something like an autism spectrum disorder.

Let me hasten to add: There's no shame in [url="http://www.markshea.blogspot.com/#"]autism spectrum disorders[/url] just as there's no shame in any other of the afflictions to which flesh is heir. God can make a saint out of every human being he creates if only the will to cooperate with grace is there and I expect there will be any number of saints who bore the cross of autism spectrum disorders as they have borne many other afflictions.

But there is shame in pride and the culture of Evangelical Atheism is absolutely sodden with it. Such pride blinds weak people to the fact that they are weak and turns their characteristic flaws (whatever they are) into "virtues" that help make them the abrasive jerks that guys like Myers, Coyne and their acolytes perpetually show themselves to be. Sin, as well as grace, "builds" on nature.[/quote]

[Winchester]

[url="http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/aspergers-facial-expressions.php"]http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/aspergers-facial-expressions.php[/url]

[Mr.Cat]

[url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2039690/Atheism-autism-Controversial-new-study-points-link-two.html"]http://www.dailymail...s-link-two.html[/url]

This article highlights that this single study, which has no verifiable conclusions yet, speculates that persons with functional and mild forms of autism may be more likely to be atheists... But the reason for this speculation is the difficulty that persons suffering from autism have in understanding metaphors. Which is definitely not the theme of atheism.

I find it strange that not too long ago numerous studies that showed correlations between religiosity and intelligence quotas were dismissed as propaganda. But one of those same people now post an article on a non-verified speculative suspicion that functional and mild cases of autism might be inclined to atheism...

Someone is a victim of groupthink here!

Edited September 23, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316743644' post='2308750']
[url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2039690/Atheism-autism-Controversial-new-study-points-link-two.html"]http://www.dailymail...s-link-two.html[/url]

This article highlights that this single study, which has no verifiable conclusions yet, speculates that persons with functional and mild forms of autism may be more likely to be atheists... But the reason for this speculation is the difficulty that persons suffering from autism have in understanding metaphors. Which is definitely not the theme of atheism.

[/quote]

I agree. Perhaps many people are drawn to religions by the social aspects. And the people with autism have troubles socially -- so the social aspect isn't as appealing to them. And they're more likely to be critical of not only the group but ultimately the religion.

Edited September 23, 2011 by southern california guy

[Maggyie]

It's interesting. The fact that there are no (or few) atheistic societies seems to suggest that religion is an evolutionary adaption. Regardless of time, culture, geography etc, supernatural belief systems are a common element - there's something about the human brain that builds and attracts to these systems. Does this mean that the brain of an atheist is different from everyone else's? Is there some kind of neurological miscoding that renders them unable to take advantage of the benefits of shared belief traditions (social cohesion and so forth)?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1316747726' post='2308786']I agree. Perhaps many people are drawn to religions by the social aspects. And the people with autism have troubles socially -- so the social aspect isn't as appealing to them. And they're more likely to be critical of not only the group but ultimately the religion.[/quote]That isn't what this study shows and persons with functional and mild autism do not have this struggle, far as I am aware.

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1316748455' post='2308792']It's interesting. The fact that there are no (or few) atheistic societies seems to suggest that religion is an evolutionary adaption. Regardless of time, culture, geography etc, supernatural belief systems are a common element - there's something about the human brain that builds and attracts to these systems. Does this mean that the brain of an atheist is different from everyone else's? Is there some kind of neurological miscoding that renders them unable to take advantage of the benefits of shared belief traditions (social cohesion and so forth)?[/quote]There may be reason to suspect religiosity might have neurological/evolutionary roots, but I use the term religiosity so broadly that it doesn't specifically deal with religion or socialization.

There are numerous non-religious/free-thinker/agnostic/atheist groups out there. I think you need to look around some. But how much diversity do you want with "[i]we don't believe[/i]"?

Some people argue that Confucianism and Buddhism are generally godless. I've heard something like this about Shintoism but I could be mistaken, I am not very familiar with Shintoism.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[faithcecelia]

I must admit that most of the diagnosed 'autistic spectrum' people I know are Christian! I can think off the top of my head of 10+, including my brother, my s-i-l's brother, a good friend and a man in my current parish. I only know one or 2 non-Christians with this diagnosis.


Interestingly, the 4yr old I nanny has very recently been diagnosed autistic. He has not been brought up in a Christian family, quite the opposite. Yet when I take him into a church with me, the change in his behaviour is significant, its hard to explain, but he definately senses [i]something.[/i] Where we live there are many, many ancient parish churches that whilst nominally becoming Anglican as they had to at the Reformation, basically haven't changed much in attitude and belief, and still repose the Blessed Sacrament. A little while ago we went into a new Anglican church renowned for its architecture, but a Low church. Within moments of going in, Corin was tugging at me to leave saying 'its not here, its not here'. He doesn't have the language to explain what he means, but I am absolutely convinced that he is sensitive to the presence of Christ, without understanding it. This would fit in with things I have heard about a couple of those people in my 10+.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316749117' post='2308796']
That isn't what this study shows and persons with functional and mild autism do not have this struggle, far as I am aware.

There may be reason to suspect religiosity might have neurological/evolutionary roots, but I use the term religiosity so broadly that it doesn't specifically deal with religion or socialization.

There are numerous non-religious/free-thinker/agnostic/atheist groups out there. I think you need to look around some. But how much diversity do you want with "[i]we don't believe[/i]"?

Some people argue that Confucianism and Buddhism are generally godless. I've heard something like this about Shintoism but I could be mistaken, I am not very familiar with Shintoism.
[/quote]

There are a lot of atheist groups out there, sure, but I mean entire cultures that from earliest stages categorically denied the existence of the supernatural. Buddhism I would say does not, I do think Confucianism could qualify as a non-supernatural philosophy system. But even in Confucian societies there are much older traditions which do involve various deities, predating the arrival of C by many many years.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1316779802' post='2308870']There are a lot of atheist groups out there, sure, but I mean entire cultures that from earliest stages categorically denied the existence of the supernatural. Buddhism I would say does not, I do think Confucianism could qualify as a non-supernatural philosophy system. But even in Confucian societies there are much older traditions which do involve various deities, predating the arrival of C by many many years.[/quote]In Buddhism there is no required or formulated belief about a god(s). Confucianism was in a sense created as being counter-religious, even though it developed into what some would qualify as a religion. Shintoism is primarily about nature, but there are some rather specific references to gods and goddesses.

Needless to say... there are non-theistic religions... and there are ample amount of atheist groups and groups that atheists are apart of. This argument that somehow atheists have difficulty socializing is a bit absurd. But no more absurd the indirect implication that atheists may suffer from a functional and mild form of autism...

Hopefully someone realizes that merely because they do not belong to a religion, does not make them non-believers or anti-social... So this whole "atheists" don't follow a religion because their socially dysfunctional is... well stupid.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Mr.Cat

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1316781597' post='2308875']
In Buddhism there is no required or formulated belief about a god(s). Confucianism was in a sense created as being counter-religious, even though it developed into what some would qualify as a religion. Shintoism is primarily about nature, but there are some rather specific references to gods and goddesses.

Needless to say... there are non-theistic religions... and there are ample amount of atheist groups and groups that atheists are apart of. This argument that somehow atheists have difficulty socializing is a bit absurd. But no more absurd the indirect implication that atheists may suffer from a functional and mild form of autism...

Hopefully someone realizes that merely because they do not belong to a religion, does not make them non-believers or anti-social... So this whole "atheists" don't follow a religion because their socially dysfunctional is... well stupid.
[/quote]

My point is that atheists have always been a distinct minority in almost all societies, even when this frequently results in persecution.
There is even the tradition of "the village atheist" implying the relative scarcity, although obviously an exaggeration. The average person, across time and space, is not an atheist.

Even non-theistic (as opposed to atheistic) cultures are rare. (I would not say Confucian thought or Buddhism are atheistic at all. Both make reference to demons and so forth for instance, just no "creator" god). One of C's sayings was "Respect the gods but keep them at a distance." Not exactly a ringing endorsement for religiosity but certainly not atheistic in the least.

Basically, how does an atheist's brain differ from an average person's? I heard once of a study being done where some neurologists hooked some nuns up to a brain imaging device and made them think about God - too funny - but they didn't hook up any atheists that I'm aware of, the comparison would have been interesting! Studies show that religious people are more plugged in to their community, spend more time volunteering etc while atheists tend to be well-educated, but loners who are more isolated from the community. This has persisted even as the stigma of atheism has disintegrated. I've even heard the theory that as society becomes less community-based and we become more solitary behind our computers and devices, atheism will naturally increase in the absence of human interaction. Being alone,with only God for company inevitably transforms into being alone... by yourself.

This is certainly the case for atheists whose atheism is just a reaction to personal rejection from believers.

[brandelynmarie]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1316764661' post='2308849']
I must admit that most of the diagnosed 'autistic spectrum' people I know are Christian! I can think off the top of my head of 10+, including my brother, my s-i-l's brother, a good friend and a man in my current parish. I only know one or 2 non-Christians with this diagnosis.


Interestingly, the 4yr old I nanny has very recently been diagnosed autistic. He has not been brought up in a Christian family, quite the opposite. Yet when I take him into a church with me, the change in his behaviour is significant, its hard to explain, but he definately senses [i]something.[/i] Where we live there are many, many ancient parish churches that whilst nominally becoming Anglican as they had to at the Reformation, basically haven't changed much in attitude and belief, and still repose the Blessed Sacrament. A little while ago we went into a new Anglican church renowned for its architecture, but a Low church. Within moments of going in, Corin was tugging at me to leave saying 'its not here, its not here'. He doesn't have the language to explain what he means, but I am absolutely convinced that he is sensitive to the presence of Christ, without understanding it. This would fit in with things I have heard about a couple of those people in my 10+.
[/quote]

I had read this years ago & have never forgotten it!


[b] Police dogs recognize Christ in the Eucharist?[/b]

A reader forwarded this anecdote that appeared in the [i][font=806377ad81f1566308e3cf90#c00800]Garabandal Journal[/font][/i] newsletter dated January/February 2007. The byline is a Father Arthur Byrne. I do not know its provenance or how accurately it represents actual events, but it’s an interesting story nonetheless:[indent]
On the evening of the last day of his October 1995 visit to the United States, John Paul II was scheduled to greet the seminarians at Saint Mary’s Seminary in Baltimore. It had been a very full day that began with a Mass at Oriole Park in Camden Yards, a parade through downtown streets, a visit to the Basilica of the Assumption, the first cathedral in the country, lunch at a local soup kitchen run by Catholic Charities; a prayer service at the Cathedral of Mary Our Queen in North Baltimore; and finally a quick stop at Saint Mary’s Seminary.
The schedule was tight so the plan was simply to greet the seminarians while they stood outside on the steps. But the Pope made his way through their ranks and into the building. His plan was to first make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament.
When his wishes were made known, security flew into action. They swept the building paying close attention to the chapel where the Pope would be praying. For this purpose highly trained dogs were used to detect any person who might be present.
The dogs are trained to locate survivors in collapsed buildings after earthquakes and other disasters. These highly intelligent and eager dogs quickly went through the halls, offices and classrooms and were then sent to the chapel. They went up and down the aisle, past the pews and finally into the side chapel where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved.
Upon reaching the tabernacle, the dogs sniffed, whined, pointed, and refused to leave, their attention riveted on the tabernacle, until called by their handlers. They were convinced that they discovered someone there.
We Catholics know they were right — they found a real, living Person in the tabernacle![/indent]

Edited September 23, 2011 by brandelynmarie

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='brandelynmarie' timestamp='1316791548' post='2308927']

I had read this years ago & have never forgotten it!


[b] Police dogs recognize Christ in the Eucharist?[/b]

A reader forwarded this anecdote that appeared in the [i]Garabandal Journal[/i] newsletter dated January/February 2007. The byline is a Father Arthur Byrne. I do not know its provenance or how accurately it represents actual events, but it’s an interesting story nonetheless:[indent]
On the evening of the last day of his October 1995 visit to the United States, John Paul II was scheduled to greet the seminarians at Saint Mary’s Seminary in Baltimore. It had been a very full day that began with a Mass at Oriole Park in Camden Yards, a parade through downtown streets, a visit to the Basilica of the Assumption, the first cathedral in the country, lunch at a local soup kitchen run by Catholic Charities; a prayer service at the Cathedral of Mary Our Queen in North Baltimore; and finally a quick stop at Saint Mary’s Seminary.
The schedule was tight so the plan was simply to greet the seminarians while they stood outside on the steps. But the Pope made his way through their ranks and into the building. His plan was to first make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament.
When his wishes were made known, security flew into action. They swept the building paying close attention to the chapel where the Pope would be praying. For this purpose highly trained dogs were used to detect any person who might be present.
The dogs are trained to locate survivors in collapsed buildings after earthquakes and other disasters. These highly intelligent and eager dogs quickly went through the halls, offices and classrooms and were then sent to the chapel. They went up and down the aisle, past the pews and finally into the side chapel where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved.
Upon reaching the tabernacle, the dogs sniffed, whined, pointed, and refused to leave, their attention riveted on the tabernacle, until called by their handlers. They were convinced that they discovered someone there.
We Catholics know they were right — they found a real, living Person in the tabernacle![/indent]
[/quote]


I hadn't heard of this but it doesn't suprise me.

[MithLuin]

Well, I can verify that Pope John Paul II visited Baltimore on Oct. 8, 1995. That much, at least, is true He did say mass at Oriole Park at Camden Yards that morning (I was there ), and he did eat at Our Daily Bread soup kitchen. According to the Vatican[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/sub_index1995/trav_usa_en.htm"] website[/url], he also visited the Cathedral, which is right around the corner from the seminary, so I imagine he did go there, too (though I didn't know that). There's probably a plaque in the Blessed Sacrament chapel there if he prayed there.

It seems unlikely that they would use search & rescue dogs (rather than just regular police dogs), and the dogs are typically trained to bark (not whine) to indicate the presence of a person. But yes, I don't see any reason they wouldn't have given a sign then, and for all we know, the story is true.



The 'study' mentioned here used way too small a sample group to have meaningful results, and also relied on atheists who were active on internet message boards to find their 'atheist' participants. If they didn't also find their non-atheists that way, the results would be very skewed. For instance, in the general population, Extraverts are at least as common as Introverts (if not more common). However, people who invest a lot of time into internet message boards tend to self-report as overwhelmingly Introverted. Thus, they are [i]not[/i] a random sample of the population, and the real meaning of this study might be that there are a higher percentage of autistic people online (not just in an atheist forum). Perhaps this will encourage someone to do a real study, but I would be very cautious in drawing any conclusions or generalizations from this data.


Shintoism is a nature religion, yes, and has belief in supernatural gods and demons. It is not less theistic than many other religions around the world. The Chinese practice ancestor worship more than a traditionally theistic religion. Their traditional culture is not atheistic, but of course their modern post-Mao culture is. One aspect of culture is religion. There is not any culture (that I am aware of) in which religious beliefs and practices are wholly absent. In fact, this is so true that readers of [i]Lord of the Rings[/i] have often pointed out that one thing that seems very...artificial...about the various cultures represented therin is that there is virtually no religion of any sort. Faith/trust/hope is and important part of the story, of course, but where are the churches? Where are the customs and rituals associated with birth, marriage, death? Where are the priests/priestesses? Etc. Tolkien tried to keep all of this very low key, and for this reason, you never see people talking about an 'elvish religion' the way you could talk about being a Jedi.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I tend to feel an athiest is an athiest because they haven't yet met the right christian whom will take the time and effort(even if it takes a year) to show them why faith works, and explain the ins and outs of christianity. Even than if after a year no change there is probably a less stubborn athiest(and yes there are stubborn christians too) waiting around the next corner that has run into a brick wall with the whole athiest do, or hey whom knows possibly an agnostic or two too.

God bless you all

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1316789140' post='2308913']My point is that atheists have always been a distinct minority in almost all societies, even when this frequently results in persecution.
There is even the tradition of "the village atheist" implying the relative scarcity, although obviously an exaggeration. The average person, across time and space, is not an atheist.[/quote]That is starting to change.
[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1316789140' post='2308913']Even non-theistic (as opposed to atheistic) cultures are rare. (I would not say Confucian thought or Buddhism are atheistic at all. Both make reference to demons and so forth for instance, just no "creator" god). One of C's sayings was "Respect the gods but keep them at a distance." Not exactly a ringing endorsement for religiosity but certainly not atheistic in the least.[/quote]Yes and no... because I know plenty of atheists who are Buddhist and they have explained how it's not a contradiction... and Buddhists who are theist have explained the same. But merely because a religion has supernatural or paranormal beliefs doesn't make it incompatible with atheism...
[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1316789140' post='2308913']Basically, how does an atheist's brain differ from an average person's? I heard once of a study being done where some neurologists hooked some nuns up to a brain imaging device and made them think about God - too funny - but they didn't hook up any atheists that I'm aware of, the comparison would have been interesting! Studies show that religious people are more plugged in to their community, spend more time volunteering etc while atheists tend to be well-educated, but loners who are more isolated from the community. This has persisted even as the stigma of atheism has disintegrated. I've even heard the theory that as society becomes less community-based and we become more solitary behind our computers and devices, atheism will naturally increase in the absence of human interaction. Being alone,with only God for company inevitably transforms into being alone... by yourself.[/quote]With the kind of god Christianity has you can never truly be alone.

But I am familiar of studies where they do imaging of the human brain between a believer/non-believer or even just people thinking about things like "god" or "themselves"... and almost the same brain activity happens in both.[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1316789140' post='2308913']This is certainly the case for atheists whose atheism is just a reaction to personal rejection from believers.[/quote]Honestly... I don't know a single atheist who is an atheist because they were treated like $&@#*&$... which seems to be a common theme in most religions. In truth almost every atheist I know will tell you that if you are leaving your beliefs because people treated you poorly that you are leaving for the wrong reasons. When I was considering what I believed or didn't believe, I found atheists more encouraging for me to remain a Catholic than the majority of Catholics that I knew... which is when I started to seriously reevaluate what I should believe or what I want to believe.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Mr.Cat