Would Anyone Consider A Carmelite Cloistered Order....

[InPersonaChriste]

When i visited the Visitation Nuns in Chile I was able to speak with one sister (the translator) and the Mother Superior. But the other nuns after an hour of chatting would knock on the door because they could not find Mother Superior! it was pretty funny actually.

I think that visiting is a key element for my vocation. It would be really hard for me personally do just correspond and then enter.

[FutureSister2009]

If I did, I would rather meet the Sisters because I would like to know who I will be living with for the rest of my life

[Graciela]

One traditional but 1991 Carmel I visited, first had me meet with the prioress and novice mistress in the parlor. After a break for LOH and noon meal (which I took in the extern area by myself) we all came back to the parlor and had recreation together so I met the whole community in a very pleasant way. After that visit, I wrote and made my request to do a discernment live-in and they wrote back and said that i could. Live-in here was not= postulancy.

[faithcecelia]

Oh dear, this serves me right for thinking I make sense Last try....


When I visited Kirk Edge I met most but not all the community over the course of a 3 day external visit. We had talked about the differences between 1990 and 1991 and that one significant difference was that they do not have live-ins, however as most postulants know within a few weeks if its really not for them, it makes sense to think of the first few weeks of postulancy as a sort of 'live-in' - I think mainly in terms of not feeling upset of disappointed if it turns out not to be right. If it was all okay you would not leave, and the postulancy would have started from the day you arrived anyway.In my last parlour with the prioress she said to me that I should think it over and then get back in touch, so that the community could vote on my entry if that was how I felt called and entry could be arranged. Had it been that I did feel called there then, based on what the prioress herself had said, I would have been voted on and entered without having met the whole community. But as I didn't feel called there its all academic!

I hope this is more coherant? If not, just ignore!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Chapel Rat' timestamp='1315868436' post='2303952']
...that doesn't let you meet or see the rest community until you entered as a postulant?

Thoughts?
[/quote]

If I felt God was calling me there, yes! As others have said, some Carmels do this, others don't. The Constitutions (1990) do not say either way. Have you read [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/110110-my-beloved-by-mother-catherine-thomas/"][i]My Beloved: The Story of a Carmelite Nun[/i][/url]? If not, I highly recommend it! The girl Cecelia didn't meet the community before entering either. It has been some years since I read it, but I think she had only spoken with the Prioress .. and I remember something about her saying she only saw the other Sisters non-veiled faces after entering.

As nunsense pointed out, one good thing about this at least is that it means the community highly values enclosure and safe-guarding the community from any unnecessary disruption - not to say that visiting an applicant is disrupting, but it has the potential to be if there were many. Another example of this is the Carmel in Lake Elmo, MN that does not allow group "nun run" visits. I have been on a few nun runs, and they are great and helpful to discernment. But I highly respect and value this Carmel's decision not to allow them.

Prayers for you and your discernment! God bless!

[Chapel Rat]

Good stuff!

Thanks to everyone for sharing their insights and praying for me! Very informative!

It helps shed light on the importance of discerning the "spirit" and "monastic feel" of a specific Carmelite community

[LadyOfSorrows]

At a 1990 Carmel I visited (twice), I was able to meet the community for about an hour each time (once on St. Teresa of Avila's feast day and once on Easter Sunday!!) It was a great way for me to see if I was called to the community or not. I felt SO connected to the nuns and it was nice to know that they were praying for me. The second time I met with the community, they asked me questions about things we talked about the first time we met! I really felt like I was a part of the family, and that community left a great impression on me, rather than the second Carmel I visited where I could not meet with the community. Although, I truly believe that if God is calling you to a particular community, He will make it known regardless of the circumstances.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1315929619' post='2304238']
Oh dear, this serves me right for thinking I make sense Last try....


When I visited Kirk Edge I met most but not all the community over the course of a 3 day external visit. We had talked about the differences between 1990 and 1991 and that one significant difference was that they do not have live-ins, however as most postulants know within a few weeks if its really not for them, it makes sense to think of the first few weeks of postulancy as a sort of 'live-in' - I think mainly in terms of not feeling upset of disappointed if it turns out not to be right. If it was all okay you would not leave, and the postulancy would have started from the day you arrived anyway.In my last parlour with the prioress she said to me that I should think it over and then get back in touch, so that the community could vote on my entry if that was how I felt called and entry could be arranged. Had it been that I did feel called there then, based on what the prioress herself had said, I would have been voted on and entered without having met the whole community. But as I didn't feel called there its all academic!

I hope this is more coherant? If not, just ignore!
[/quote]


Well, you raise an interesting couple of points for me. One, is that this particular Carmel is heavily influenced by their Prioress, so if she asked them to vote for entry, I doubt there would ever be even one dissenting vote, so perhaps not everyone would feel they had to meet the candidate before voting. On the other hand, it might be that if you had considered applying, the Prioress would have had you meet them all before the vote - we will never know now since you did not apply.

The other point is the fact of calling a postulancy a 'live-in'. Perhaps the KE Prioress does see it this way - she and I never discussed it quite this way since I was applying to be a postulant. But the fact is that they are not the same thing, as the postulancy requires a vote and a live-in does not - a Prioress can decide this on her own. This is similar to my entry at Edmonton, where I thought I was doing a live-in visit, but after one week, the Prioress came to me and said the community had voted to accept me as a postulant and she took me upstairs to change into a postulant outfit - in this situation I had never even applied to enter (and was not intending to do so), so to say it was a bit of a shock would be an understatement! In that case, I would definitely say that the boundaries between a live-in and a postulancy were blurred!!

I don't think you were confusing at all. We have just had different experiences of different Carmels, so we probably see things in different ways. And I guess I have an ongoing relationship with some these Carmels that also changes my perspectives - so I will certainly ask Mother KE about this next time I email her. I have sent a few applicants to both KE and WV and it is interesting to me afterwards that the applicants sometimes have a different idea of what happened than the Prioress (or community) does. But that's because we are all human beings and communication is a very complex experience - with each person seeing things slightly differently. And my own relationship with each Carmel has certainly changed now that I am no longer a member of these communities, so this influences how I see things. Just as you will have a relationship wtih Quidenham that I will never have, even if I visit them for a few days, I suppose my relationship with the ones where I have lived is always going to be a little different than that of someone who has visited them.

In response to someone else (forget who) - yes, I have met whole communities at a shared Recreation in the parlour - these are lovely. Even the last time I visited WV - the Prioress let the whole community come to the parlour to say hello - and we laughed just as we used to do at Recreation when I was living with them. I think this is a marvellous way to get to know a community because one can see them interacting with each other!

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='LadyOfSorrows' timestamp='1315939188' post='2304339']
At a 1990 Carmel I visited (twice), I was able to meet the community for about an hour each time (once on St. Teresa of Avila's feast day and once on Easter Sunday!!) It was a great way for me to see if I was called to the community or not. I felt SO connected to the nuns and it was nice to know that they were praying for me. The second time I met with the community, they asked me questions about things we talked about the first time we met! I really felt like I was a part of the family, and that community left a great impression on me, rather than the second Carmel I visited where I could not meet with the community. Although, I truly believe that if God is calling you to a particular community, He will make it known regardless of the circumstances.
[/quote]
which one was that? it's a really good custom.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1315930041' post='2304244']

As others have said, some Carmels do this, others don't. The Constitutions (1990) do not say either way.

[/quote]

Actually, the 1990 Constitutions do say, but in an indirect way. Chapter XXI, para 164 states "The right to admit aspirants pertains to the Mother Prioress, [b]with the deliberative vote of the Chapter [/b]of the Monastery (Cf. can. 641)

Emphasis is mine, to point out that if the Chapter is supposed to vote on the applicant, then they probably need to meet with her.... at least that would make sense to me. Now, there is no reason for the non-voting member of the community to meet with the applicant at this point, since they can't vote!




In the 1991 Constitutions, this is almost word for word the same, in Part II Chapter 2 Section 1 Para 141 "It pertains to the Prioress, with the consent of the Chapter, to admit candidates to the postulancy."

But the 1991 Constitutions also state in Part II Chapter 1, para 134 "In order to make this task of discerning a vocation easier and to help those who show true signs of having a vocation to the contemplative life to come to a better understanding of our way of life, the Prioress, if she sees fit, with the consent of the Chapter, may allow them to live inside the monastery for a period of time not exceeding three months.


In light of canon law 641 and the intentions of the Council, it would certainly seem to me that the input of the community (at least the voting members) would be an essential aspect of admitting an applicant as a postulant, especially if there is no provision for a live-in visit (as in the 1990s). In that case, then at least meeting with the Chapter members seems important. Although the live-in also requries the consent of the Chapter, they could very well choose to be lenient in this case since they are not actually accepting the woman as a postulant, but merely as a visitor.

Edited September 15, 2011 by nunsense

[Chapel Rat]

Thank you, nunsense! During the summer, I decided to take the leap of faith and submitted my application to enter.

Then, I went on a retreat and had some really good and needed spiritual direction; he cautioned me entering a community where I'm not able to meet all the sisters.

When I spoke with Prioress and Sub-Prioress about this, it didn't go over so well with them and my request was declined. I didn't get a clear reason why I'm not able to meet with everyone.Unfortunately, it became an awkward and uncomfortable conversation, but ended on a better note.

I did that I needed more time, prayer, and spiritual direction at this moment.

Everyone's information and advice has really helped me to confirm what's stirring in my heart. God bless everyone!