Chapel Rat Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 ...that doesn't let you meet or see the rest community until you entered as a postulant? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i<3franciscans Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I would write a lot if that is possible and really pray on it. Lastly be open, Jesus would tell you if that is where he wants you or not. Peace! i<3f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceciliatherese Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I visited with the Carmelites of Elysburg, and they don't allowed that either. It's pretty unfortunate because meeting the community can really help you get a feel for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aya Sophia Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I hadn't heard of this custom. I wonder if it's particular to 1990 Carmels. Certainly not all 1990 Carmels have it. I would be interested to know their reasoning for it and whether it's codified in their Paper of Exactions or Customary (it's not in the 1990 Constitutions themselves.) If I were discerning with a community that had this custom I wouldn't necessarily reject the community out of hand or object to the practice on principle. It does ratchet up the height of one's leap of faith a little but this may not be a bad thing. It means a bit more obscurity when you're on the outside looking in but if you go in it isn't as though you're going in to tie the knot. You're going in to start living the life and discerning whether it's God's will for you. Also, it strikes me as a practice perhaps not intrinsically alien to the Carmelite charism which has "the hidden life" at its core (hence the tradition of radical physical enclosure) - not everyone's vocational cuppa, to be sure, but objectively valid and valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I'm not sure I understand this as the community has to vote on accepting the cadidate, and if they don't meet her, how can they do this? I was in a 1990 Carmel, very strict one too, and of course they let me meet each sister, so that each sister could meet me and make her decision about whether to allow me to try or not. The Prioress can send the postulant away at any time without the consent of the community, but she cannot allow a new postulant to enter without the consent of the majority vote of the community - it's in the Constitutions (even the 1990s one). I would maintain contact with them, and ask to meet each sister in the parlor for a visit - otherwise, ask the Prioress to explain what her thinking is on this. Better to get it straight now. It doesn't sound canonically legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
begin_again Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I totally agree with nunsense about asking to meet each sister since they do have to vote. It seems to me that they are asking a lot for you to enter not knowing any others in the community. Something doesn't seem quite right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Thinking about this further, could it be that they don't allow you to meet the other sisters until you have actually applied to enter? If they are trying to protect the silence and solitude for each sister, perhaps they don't allow these kinds of meetings until they actually to have to make a vote on someone? That would make sense to me. There are a lot of women who like to visit convents who have no intention of actually applying to enter, and if the cloistered sisters had to visit with each one of these, it could get very disruptive indeed. Just a thought.... further to this, I had an experience in one of the 1991 Carmels where I was asked to meet with a woman in the parlour - she was a stranger to me but she was a benefactor to the community and she just wanted to talk about her problems. The Prioress was busy and felt that as a Novice, I was the only one she could spare to spend the time just 'chatting' with this person. I was very upset about it at the time because I didn't want to spend an hour or two just 'socialising' but she told me it was an act of charity for someone who had been good to us, so I did it with as much grace as I could. I was not the best choice for this however as I was so new to convent life, and felt completely uncomfortable in the situation, but I did it out of obedience and charity. Now they have an extern who handles this kind of thing, but I was the 'sacrificial lamb' at the time (the way I felt then). Today I might feel different about the whole situation, I don't know, but it does make me think that perhaps the Prioress who is not allowing visits is only trying to protect the sisters from unneccessary disruption. If however, we are talking about visiting with an applicant, that is a different thing entirely as the whole community will be affected if she enters. Edited September 13, 2011 by nunsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceciliatherese Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1315881869' post='2304046'] Thinking about this further, could it be that they don't allow you to meet the other sisters until you have actually applied to enter? If they are trying to protect the silence and solitude for each sister, perhaps they don't allow these kinds of meetings until they actually to have to make a vote on someone? That would make sense to me. There are a lot of women who like to visit convents who have no intention of actually applying to enter, and if the cloistered sisters had to visit with each one of these, it could get very disruptive indeed. Just a thought.... [/quote] That's what it's like for Elysburg, it's only after the application that they let you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Ah, that does make sense. I can see why it would be...disconcerting...to enter without meeting people. Though, I suppose, as a postulant you could always just pick up and go home if it weren't working out. But I also see the point of not allowing just any old visitor to meet with the sisters, but only applicants who have made at least one significant gesture of good faith showing a desire to join the community. I know it would be nervewracking to make the decision to apply with such minimal contact, but that's a smaller leap of faith than actually entering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 My experience at Quidenham was exceptional, as I went inside my very first visit! It was summer and they have beautiful guest houses which were very busy with people having private retreats, and I also had a busy schedule with work and church, so in the end it was the only way we could get a weekend booked without waiting about 6mths! With Notting Hill it has been far more usual, with me meeting the prioress (who is also NM), the subprioress and the 3rd council sister - I imagine if the NM was a different person I might not have met the 3rd council sister. My second visit I met about half the sisters, and my third was my little live-in. When I visited Kirk Edge I met most of the sisters very briefly in the parlour, and had I decided to take things further there I would most probably have entered without meeting them all, and having only [i]really[/i] talked to the prioress - I didn't even have a seperate parlour with the NM. I have also visited 2 Poor Clares communities. I went to Arundel (who are [i]lovely[/i] if anyone is looking for PCs in the UK - website is terrible but please don't judge by that) 5yrs ago when I was first time round. There I met with the Abbess, NM and also they have a seperate Postulant Mistress. I also had tea in the parlour with 3 of the younger sisters which was nice. Due to difficulty arranging priests they at the time (and still from the Cathedral website) host the Cathedral vigil Mass on Sat eve. So I was very suprised on Sunday morning that I was collected and whipped into enclosure for the private Mass they have said by a retired priest. So I got to see a little of the convent, and literally 'see' all the sisters. My next visit, had I followed it up, would have been a short live-in. 18mths ago I visited Woodchester Poor Clares, who have now amalgamated with Lynton. Oh I adored them and had I felt called to the PCs I would not have hesitated entering, even knowing their extreme poverty (in the real sense of barely affording their bills) and such a small community. I stayed in a guest room outside enclosure but sat with the sisters for the Office and Mass, and was taken through to have dinner with them each day - on the Sunday the Abbess permitted talking so we could get to know each other. [i]However[/i] I was told at the time by the Abbess that she didn't know why, but she had felt led to be more inclusive of me than usual, that she had a certainty of my vocation (whether there or not) and for some reason felt I should be allowed to be 'inside' from the start. At the time, I had not told her I had been at Q - I did later - and my visit to them was a massive turning point. So anyway to return to the thread (sorry ) my experience suggests it is normal to not meet all the sisters in the parlour, and if they do not permit live-ins then it is quite possible to enter without having met everyone and I wouldn't be worried myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1315901529' post='2304133'] When I visited Kirk Edge I met most of the sisters very briefly in the parlour, and had I decided to take things further there I would most probably have entered without meeting them all, and having only [i]really[/i] talked to the prioress - I didn't even have a seperate parlour with the NM. [/quote] I think if you had decided to apply to enter, the Prioress might have asked you to meet with all of the sisters (perhaps two at a time) and I am sure she would have had you meet with the NM because she made sure that I met everyone who was going to vote for me, and especially the NM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1315908410' post='2304149'] I think if you had decided to apply to enter, the Prioress might have asked you to meet with all of the sisters (perhaps two at a time) and I am sure she would have had you meet with the NM because she made sure that I met everyone who was going to vote for me, and especially the NM! [/quote] You may well be right, but it certainly wasn't the way it was presented to me, which was that they have a visit outside and then entering can be seen if you choose as being the 'live-in' and it was for me to go away and think about it. I did meet the NM, but didn't have a separate parlour with her. Obviously in my case it was irrelevant as I didn't feel it was the right place for me anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1315908813' post='2304152'] You may well be right, but it certainly wasn't the way it was presented to me, which was that they have a visit outside and then entering can be seen if you choose as being the 'live-in' and it was for me to go away and think about it. I did meet the NM, but didn't have a separate parlour with her. Obviously in my case it was irrelevant as I didn't feel it was the right place for me anyway [/quote] Well, I think the confusion here is that what you are referring to is a 'live-in' is as a postulant, not a candidate. I spent a week outside in the flat during my visiting period at KE, but after I applied and was voted in, then I entered as a postulant, which might be considered a live-in in the old days, but not what a lot of Carmels refer to today as a live-in. Since then, I have done a live-in with a community (in Australia) for three months, where I was not a postulant yet - I had to leave my live-in and go home before actually being voted in as a postulant at that community. So the concept of 'live-in' wasn't really the same thing for the two places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1315909642' post='2304153'] Well, I think the confusion here is that what you are referring to is a 'live-in' is as a postulant, not a candidate. I spent a week outside in the flat during my visiting period at KE, but after I applied and was voted in, then I entered as a postulant, which might be considered a live-in in the old days, but not what a lot of Carmels refer to today as a live-in. Since then, I have done a live-in with a community (in Australia) for three months, where I was not a postulant yet - I had to leave my live-in and go home before actually being voted in as a postulant at that community. So the concept of 'live-in' wasn't really the same thing for the two places. [/quote] Ah, you misunderstand me (sorry, I am not good at saying it clearly!) The prioress actually said to me to view postulancy as a 'live-in' (using ' '!) as its the only way you can see their life from the inside, not that my postulancy wouldn't begin from day 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1315909984' post='2304154'] Ah, you misunderstand me (sorry, I am not good at saying it clearly!) The prioress actually said to me to view postulancy as a 'live-in' (using ' '!) as its the only way you can see their life from the inside, not that my postulancy wouldn't begin from day 1. [/quote] We are probably at cross purposes here - and anyway, I think the OP is about whether or not one should meet all the sisters before entering, and I guess that is going to be different depending upon whether one is doing a 'live-in' or entering as a postulant and whether the community wants to meet her before voting. All I have to go on are my own experiences, and in every case, I was allowed to meet the community before they voted. And according to both sets of Constitutions, this is the norm. That is not to say that some communities haven't made their own exceptions to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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