Liberal Catholics And Huge Emphasis On Social Justice

[tinytherese]

Why do you think that is? I'm not saying that social justice isn't important but why ignore everything else in the faith?

[Luigi]

I'm sure you'd be better off to ask them... not that plenty of Phatpholks don't have opinions, I'm sure... but it would all be attributions based on speculation...

Straight from the horse's mouth and all that.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1315805150' post='2303660']
Why do you think that is? I'm not saying that social justice isn't important but why ignore everything else in the faith?
[/quote]

Is that at the Newman club? Back when I was in college the Newman club made a really big deal out of "social justice". I think that the big reason that they emphasize that over everything else is that they either don't believe everything else -- or want to avoid discussing it.

They don't really want to discuss conservative Catholic morality do they?

Edited September 12, 2011 by southern california guy

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1315826086' post='2303748']

They don't really want to discuss [s]conservative[/s] Catholic morality do they?
[/quote]
Fixed. There is only one Catholic morality. But yes, I think this is the crux of it. Easier to tell people to feed the poor than to tell them to be chaste.

[Basilisa Marie]

Actually this sort of was the big issue we tackled in my theology senior seminar class - trying to get beyond conservative and liberal labels and what makes them tick. Part of the problem is thinking that liberal Catholics ignore everything else in the faith - they don't. I think the first generation of "liberals" after Vatican II saw much of what was said in the council as a return to the roots of what it meant to be Christian, "love thy neighbor." Most "liberals" I know read the Bible, have a very active spiritual life, attend mass every Sunday, and do their best to live a Christian life. They have issues with things like the male priesthood because, at the heart, they don't understand why it has to be the way it is, and "because the Church says so" is an incredibly unsatisfactory answer. Most of them then read something that makes sense to them, some argument for women in the priesthood (for example), and it's easier to accept that than to work much harder and try and find satisfactory answers in line with the Church. Part of the problem is also that they've been raised in societies where authority is supposed to be questioned, and there are plenty of competing voices. Recent trends in scholarship (such as biblical historical criticism, for example) also more easily support "liberal" theology than conservative, but that doesn't mean that there isn't good stuff out there.

The next generation after Vatican II is seeing a minor new trend that a professor of mine has named "Evangelical Catholics." These are the kids that everyone is talking about, the ones that were raised in a "fluffy Jesus loves me" atmosphere but are craving something more, but are also concerned with things like social justice. They'll just as much embrace Maximillian Kolbe's consecration to Jesus through Mary as Dorothy Day's Catholic Worker movement. These are the kids who will probably end up being the next generation's youth ministers and educators. An article [url="http://www.communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/portier31-1.pdf"]here [/url]I find interesting about it.

Vilifying liberals is no better than liberals vilifying conservatives as blindly-obedient, reason-shunning devotees that are obsessed with the ritualistic trappings of Catholicism and don't care enough about their neighbor too look outside their own lives for two seconds. Of course that isn't true about conservatives, not in the slightest. I guess what I'm trying to say is "Why can't we all just try to get along?" Maybe I don't completely understand what you mean by liberal Catholics. I would personally put those Catholics who just don't want to follow the moral teachings of the faith in the "lukewarm" Catholic-in-name category. But true liberals, I think, are a dying breed, just don't truly understand the Church's teaching and have found lines of reasoning that they think are "better."

[beatitude]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1315830430' post='2303763']
Fixed. There is only one Catholic morality. But yes, I think this is the crux of it. Easier to tell people to feed the poor than to tell them to be chaste.
[/quote]

This reminds me of something a friend who is a cloistered nun once told me. Chastity (not just vowed religious celibacy, but the kind of chastity to which all people are called) involves keeping an open heart for God, and the result should be an overflow of love and generosity to others. I admire people who have zeal for justice, but it's like a car without an engine without other elements of the faith. It doesn't make sense to separate things into parts.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1315832214' post='2303766']

The next generation after Vatican II is seeing a minor new trend that a professor of mine has named "Evangelical Catholics." These are the kids that everyone is talking about, the ones that were raised in a "fluffy Jesus loves me" atmosphere but are craving something more, but are also concerned with things like social justice. They'll just as much embrace Maximillian Kolbe's consecration to Jesus through Mary as Dorothy Day's Catholic Worker movement. These are the kids who will probably end up being the next generation's youth ministers and educators. An article [url="http://www.communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/portier31-1.pdf"]here [/url]I find interesting about it.

[/quote]

HEY! That's me! Although I don't know how "fluffy" my grade school was, it might just have been that I was a little "fluffy" m'self. Currently studying up on total consecration, big fan of Dorothy Day. For me its one of those situations (like in the discussion of the Charismatic Renewal) where I see absolutely no reason as to why everyone sees it as an either/or situation, and not a both/and.

In returning to the discussion, I'm going to agree with what Basilisa Marie said. Most of the more "liberal" Catholics that I know aren't really Catholic, especially the ones that fit the description given here. The concern with social justice gives them an ideology to follow. And that's basically the extent of their involvement in the Church.

[rachael]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1315832214' post='2303766']
These are the kids that everyone is talking about, the ones that were raised in a "fluffy Jesus loves me" atmosphere but are craving something more, but are also concerned with things like social justice. about it.

[/quote]
Has Jesus been getting a bit fatter?

[MithLuin]

I think that social justice allows people to focus on unjust structures rather than on personal sanctity. So, in some ways, it's more comfortable...you can look at it as focusing on 'other people's sin' rather than on your own, and say, hey, they're the splinter/log people! BUT...social justice issues also make you look at society and say...hey...we're doing it wrong. Sure, my family may be well enough off to have a roof over our heads and food to eat and clothes to wear and access to a great education...but what about that homeless guy on the street or that lady in prison or that kid in the hospital? When you pay attention to the works of mercy, your eyes are opened to a bigger world. And sure, you might feel warm and fuzzy for giving the homeless guy something to eat or praying with the prisoner, but....why him and not me? How come I get to go home to my nice warm safe bed with no worries while thousands of kids in East Africa are starving tonight? And maybe just maybe...the way I'm living is doing something to contribute to those other situations I think are unacceptable. I think that getting into social justice and the heart of the Catholic social teachings can be very uncomfortable. So, I commend those who are willing to go there and do something about it.

Why do some people place more emphasis on this than others? Clearly because it's the aspect of the Christian message that speaks most clearly to them. That's what they see as important about being a Catholic.

I also agree with Amppax it should not be an either/or.

You shouldn't have to choose a parish that has beautiful liturgies [i]OR[/i] lots of social outreach ministries.

You shouldn't have to focus on helping others [i]OR[/i] personal sanctity.

You shouldn't have to choose between receiving the sacraments [i]OR[/i] serving your neighbor.

You shouldn't decide to share truth [i]OR[/i] love with your neighbor.

You shouldn't describe your goal in life as 'to be a good person' [i]OR[/i] 'to go to heaven.'

If you're following Jesus...it should be BOTH/AND.

But if you want to know why a particular person thinks or acts the way they do...ask that person. What Luigi said....if we use generalizations, we'll miss the point and misrepresent the people.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='rachael' timestamp='1315845109' post='2303810']
Has Jesus been getting a bit fatter?
[/quote]

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

pax domine...
I may be wrong but isn't the churches prime objective social justice.left,right or centre, in that her prime objective is to feed and clothe the poor though i know there are other social justice objectives, i am no chirch scholar but can we not wrap social justice into a neat single word, charity (in prayer,word,thought and deed). To be perfect as the father is perfect, even though we may not obtain this absolute perfection till heaven that we give our best effort to apply this simple love of christ in all areas of our lives in suffering and joy,in peace and sorrow etc etc. Some recieve spectacualr miracles of conversion, i'm sure, but some recieve a miracle of grace over time,and some a bit of both, whom can judge god's reason for such a manner of dealings.
God bless you all.
Isaiah 40:28 "the LORD never grows weak or weary, whom can measure the depth of his understanding?"

P.s. But in that one must also remember charity is neither anything goes or zero tollerance, and i believe as humans we also need to have boundaries personaly and with others, jesus drew a line in the sand i believe to tell us this is how we are perfect like the father is perfect but realise it says like not as,the devils first temptaion was that we could be as god..

Edited September 13, 2011 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[tinytherese]

Sure it shouldn't be an either or, but unfortunately a lot of people see it that way.

A priest serving at my high school years ago would rarely speak of anything in his homilies other than doing charitable works. I agree that that shouldn't be something to avoid talking about but when that is virtually all that is talked about then that can be annoying. That is just one piece of being Catholic. Also, whether they meant it or not, sometimes people can get the vibe that if you don't volunteer at Meals on Wheels or whatever that you are a bad Christian.

I was hungry to hear about other issues. What about the sacraments, prayer, the saints, Mary, a personal relationship with Jesus, and morality issues other than charitable work, etc.? Even if these topics were brought up, it was very little. I didn't want a tiny bite of lunch, I wanted the whole meal. My classmates seemed to long for more too. Questions that they had about being Catholic weren't even touched on or covered very well at all. Some of our theology classes seemed to be more like general humanities classes with God on the side or barely mentioned. I'm afraid that unsatisfied, I had peers who looked elsewhere in other faiths and left the Church and even Christianity itself.

The gospel story of Martha and Mary comes to mind as well. Did Jesus appreciate Martha working hard to serve Him? Yes, but He called her to do more than that. He wanted to spend time with her like He was spending time with Mary. Is this to say that Martha was a bad person who didn't care about Our Lord? Goodness no! There is a time and a season to do everything. We need our prayer time for we are not body or mind alone but both matter and spirit. We need to be both Martha and Mary, though some of us may lean more towards one than the other.

I had some classes with one professor who was definitely liberal. In our class on the Eucharist, we read two books which inspired my avatar and sig. Basically, they talked about how oh Jesus used bread at the Last Supper which was a meal. Bread is needed to feed poor people, so let's focus on doing that instead of the sacrament and the liturgy. They focused so much on bread and feeding hungry people that the True Presence seemed to be downplayed. From the things that this professor said, it was debatable whether or not she believed in consumpstantiation-a Protestant belief. She thought that her daughter's use of the term "Jesus bread" was a good one.

She made up an example of a lesson for our faith development and formation class on the Acts of the Apostles using the song "Lord of the Dance" editing Acts to fit with the song and had us read parts of it. I had to read as the apostle John who when asked by the crippled man in the temple if he had money to give him, responded with asking the crippled man if he would care to dance, then was cured. What the flip? She also believed in the aspect of renewal (aggiornamento) in Vatican II but not within the context of the other lung of returning to the sources (ressourcement.)

[tinytherese]

Inclusive language, doing this B.C.E. and C.E. dating, etc. I'm tired of all this bull at a Catholic university and one on the Newman Guide at that. I'll probably have to do graduate school just so I can actually learn something with substance for a change.

This is really more of a catharsis/advice perhaps trying to understand them yet frustrated at the same time thread. I don't want to judge them but at the same time that doesn't mean that we should simply hold hands and sing Kumbaya and ignore problems.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i understand what your saying tinytherese, what about abortion? what about focusing also on the women and not just the unborn baby? though both are inmportant. If there is a left and right wing in the church i believe it is false, if there is a left and right wing the right is jesus and the left is the holy spirit and the centre is the father all equal in majesty and divintity unseprable each person of the trinity is one, than is there in truth any left or right wing in the church that reflects the trinity if divided ?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1315912412' post='2304159']
Inclusive language, doing this B.C.E. and C.E. dating, etc. I'm tired of all this bull at a Catholic university and one on the Newman Guide at that. I'll probably have to do graduate school just so I can actually learn something with substance for a change.

This is really more of a catharsis/advice perhaps trying to understand them yet frustrated at the same time thread. I don't want to judge them but at the same time that doesn't mean that we should simply hold hands and sing Kumbaya and ignore problems.
[/quote]

Juar remember little sister,the saints and priests and religious can point you in the right direction at times but salvation is the rite of god alone in the holy sacrements,the holy word of god and sacred tradition. In that the priesthood iz a sacrement too but i assume there main purpose iz tha concecration of the gifts and absolution of sin,not so much the homily. The best homily i am assured iz the chatechism and the holy word of god and by no way iz seeking the truth bitter.
Jesus "seek and ye shall find,knock and the door will be opened" he never states how many times we have to knock or how long we are to seek. Onward christian soul, your doing well

Edited September 13, 2011 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye